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Thread: The Crusades: A History by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Prof. of Eccleastical History

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    The Crusades: A History by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Prof. of Eccleastical History

    Building background on geopolitics, I just purchased the subject e-book. "The Crusades: A History is the definitive account of a key topic in medieval and religious history. Jonathan Riley-Smith, a world authority on the subject, explores the organisation of a crusade, the experience of crusading and the crusaders themselves, producing a textbook that is as accessible as it is comprehensive."

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Crusades-H.../dp/1472513517

    I found his Cambridge U. chair title irresistible for tweaking the parochial Yankees among US.
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    The Crusades, Even Now By KAREN ARMSTRONG, NYT Magazine, Scenes from the Millenium

    That we so readily invoke the Crusades testifies to the importance of that era in European history. With the Crusades, the West found its soul. It began cultivating its own literary, artistic and spiritual traditions. This was the age of St. Francis of Assisi, Giotto, Dante and the troubadours. Until the Crusades, Europe had been a primitive backwater, isolated from other civilizations and lost in a dark age that had descended on Western Christendom after the collapse of the Roman Empire in the fifth century. By the end of the crusading venture, Europe had not only recovered but also was on a course to overtake its rivals and achieve world hegemony. This recovery was a triumph unparalleled in history, but it was also a triumph that involved great strain and whose unfortunate consequences reverberate even today.
    http://partners.nytimes.com/library/...armstrong.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusad...ropean_culture
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    The problem with the Crusades is that the rather ignorant, liberal mainstream media are among the first to throw it in our face, citing the horrible things we did against Islam for centuries, while totally ignoring that we never started that fight. They include only the second half of the game.

    Let's look at the first half, the 460 years leading up to 1095, the date of the first Crusade.

    The year 1095 was:

    • 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies
    • 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies
    • 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies
    • 443 years after Muslims first plundered Italy
    • 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople
    • 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies
    • 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies
    • 249 years after the capitol of the Christian world, Rome itself, was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions and Christians.


    Partial list only. The full list is ten times this long.

    By the time the Crusades finally began, Muslim armies had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world. That's the part so often left out of the history books. It would be like reporting US aggression against Japan and Nazi Germany while conveniently leaving out the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and Nazi aggression and domination through Europe, North Africa, and West Asia.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Chapter 1 of 'The Crusades' is Holy and penitential warfare, with a section of some length devoted to each topic. The section Holy Warfare should be of interest to those seeing a pacifist Christianity.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    There were many crusades not just against Muslims with the lame excuse of they did it first.Many "pagans" were forced to convert by the sword much of Europe in fact. It was a capital offense not to be baptized in many cases.Was it Christianities fault? Nope. It was power hungry peoples fault.I say lets stop the chain and stop the wars that are slaughtering others no matter who may have started it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Who started the Crusades

    The Catholic cult created the Muslim cult to get the holy land. The Muslims decided they had a good thing going and here we are. The Catholics have butchered millions in God's name with out ever reading the Bible. Jesus was asked if fire should be brought down from heaven and destroy those who reject what he had to say. Jesus said no. They asked what should they do if they rejected God's word. Jesus said just wipe the dust off of your feet and go to the next town. God can not make you love him and he will not order any one to kill for him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Birdman View Post
    The Catholic cult created the Muslim cult to get the holy land.
    Citation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Birdman View Post
    The Catholics have butchered millions in God's name
    Citation?

    According to Wiki about 1.7 million died in the Crusades. As noted, these were defensive wars and so I don't think they can justly be considered "butchering" anyone.

    The whole of the Inquisition is estimated to have killed 150,000.

    Do you intend to lay all the deaths of European Colonization in the Americas on the Catholic Church? While it is difficult to separate Spanish conquests from Catholicism, English Colonization was not materially less destructive to existing inhabitants and was most decidedly not done at the direction of the Pope.

    So where are the millions who were butchered by "the Catholics"?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Catholics brutal conquest of Europe is always ignored.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    we never started that fight. They include only the second half of the game.

    By the time the Crusades finally began, Muslim armies had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world. That's the part so often left out of the history books.
    They continued to "turn the other cheek" until backed in a corner. Is this happening in todays news? Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    As noted, these were defensive wars and so I don't think they can justly be considered "butchering" anyone.
    So where are the millions who were butchered by "the Catholics"?
    Ask the Incas, the Aztecs, the People of Guam. It went something like this:

    "Hello, Welcome to our Island, make yourselves comfortable."
    "Hello, do you know jesus?"
    "Well, no I do not."
    "Cut his head off, not a christian."

    I do not defend the Crusades. It was a retaliation to a long, ongoing conflict. Wars are fought for three reasons, 1/Land, 2/Sex, and 3/Religion.
    Forced religion has been a bane on us all, no matter what or who you pray to.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 05-13-2015 at 10:39 AM. Reason: spelig
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    Some things never change.

    The Saracen tradition of mass beheadings continues from ~1095 when they wheeled carts full of heads through Spanish cities to demonstrate that the infidels need not be feared.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Ask the Incas, the Aztecs, the People of Guam. It went something like this:
    I noted European conquest specifically. And when one realizes that Protestant England was at least as aggressive and brutal as was Catholic Spain, one might start to question the extent to which Catholicism was responsible, as opposed merely to members of the Catholic church being responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Forced religion has been a bane on us all, no matter what or who you pray to.
    "Forced religion" is an oxymoron. And while it was certainly a bane to those subjected to it, the vast majority of us have not been subjected to it...unless you include atheist communist as a "religion".

    Communism has been forced on huge swaths of humanity in the last 100 years, is responsible for some 100 million murders in that time (in addition to war causalities), and poses one of the larger risks to freedom in the world. Combined, Islamic terrorists and Christian fanatics are a full order of magnitude behind over all of recorded history.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    According to Wiki about 1.7 million died in the Crusades. As noted, these were defensive wars and so I don't think they can justly be considered "butchering" anyone.The whole of the Inquisition is estimated to have killed 150,000.Do you intend to lay all the deaths of European Colonization in the Americas on the Catholic Church? While it is difficult to separate Spanish conquests from Catholicism, English Colonization was not materially less destructive to existing inhabitants and was most decidedly not done at the direction of the Pope.So where are the millions who were butchered by "the Catholics"?Charles
    QFT
    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I noted European conquest specifically. And when one realizes that Protestant England was at least as aggressive and brutal as was Catholic Spain, one might start to question the extent to which Catholicism was responsible, as opposed merely to members of the Catholic church being responsible.
    Like I said conquest of Europe still ignored.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    They continued to "turn the other cheek" until backed in a corner. Is this happening in todays news? Maybe.Ask the Incas, the Aztecs, the People of Guam. It went something like this:"Hello, Welcome to our Island, make yourselves comfortable.""Hello, do you know jesus?""Well, no I do not.""Cut his head off, not a christian."I do not defend the Crusades. It was a retaliation to a long, ongoing conflict. Wars are fought for three reasons, 1/Land, 2/Sex, and 3/Religion. Forced religion has been a bane on us all, no matter what or who you pray to.
    +1Also what many people label as The Crusades, were not the only crusades.His mentioning of the protest brutality does not in anyway weaken your statement, in fact it strengthens it.Ignoring the fact that much of religious history has been a history of forced religion is silly on his part.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Like I said conquest of Europe still ignored.
    So post your citations and numbers. Do make some attempt to separate what the Catholic church did, and what people who happened to be Catholics did.

    I'm betting that in some 1800 years of Catholic history, their worst behavior pales compared to what the atheistic communists did in 100 years.

    The Catholics probably can't even come close to the godless Nazis (who hated religion generally and Catholicism specifically).

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Ignoring the fact that much of religious history has been a history of forced religion is silly on his part.
    At its worst, religion outshines the godless Nazis (with their evolutionary support for Eugenics) and the atheistic communists.

    The problem with bigoted atheists attacking religions is that the atheists have a much worse record of being bad, and a much lighter record of doing any good.

    Do point out the charitable hospitals, orphanages, or universities founded and run by atheists.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 05-13-2015 at 11:06 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    So post your citations and numbers. Do make some attempt to separate what the Catholic church did, and what people who happened to be Catholics did.I'm betting that in some 1800 years of Catholic history, their worst behavior pales compared to what the atheistic communists did in 100 years.The Catholics probably can't even come close to the godless Nazis (who hated religion generally and Catholicism specifically).Charles
    You are actually ignoring my posts or are purposefully leaving out things I have said. Especially since I made that very distinction.Yet you cannot go on about what people claim they are and then make a broad brush stroke about people claiming to be something else.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    At its worst, religion outshines the godless Nazis (with their evolutionary support for Eugenics) and the atheistic communists.The problem with bigoted atheists attacking religions is that the atheists have a much worse record of being bad, and a much lighter record of doing any good.Do point out the charitable hospitals, orphanages, or universities founded and run by atheists. Charles
    Baseless assertion. I bet if you put in ratios rather than just numbers, you'd be very very wrong.Eugenics progressive American Christians liked those programs very much.LOL baseless assertions that atheists have a worse record of doing bad.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Baseless assertion. I bet if you put in ratios rather than just numbers, you'd be very very wrong.Eugenics progressive American Christians liked those programs very much.LOL baseless assertions that atheists have a worse record of doing bad.
    Aren't modern communist countries officially atheist? That was my understanding. IF, if being the functional word here, that is true, then it would be difficult to deny that at least functionally atheist regimes have killed and oppressed more humans in modern history than anything else other than poverty.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    ...then it would be difficult to deny that at least functionally atheist regimes have killed and oppressed more humans in modern history than anything else other than poverty.
    And nothing like communism or its younger brother socialism to bring on poverty of both the economic and social/character kinds.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Aren't modern communist countries officially atheist? That was my understanding. IF, if being the functional word here, that is true, then it would be difficult to deny that at least functionally atheist regimes have killed and oppressed more humans in modern history than anything else other than poverty.
    Whats the common factor? The ideology or the enforcement method?

    Using this logic during the middle ages one could say christianity has killed more and oppressed more than any other regime at that historical time.

    Then before that, what ever ideology was common in that era.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    And nothing like communism or its younger brother socialism to bring on poverty of both the economic and social/character kinds.
    Socialism is the tree communism is the branch.

    U.S. is operating under a from of socialism too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I bet if you put in ratios rather than just numbers, you'd be very very wrong.
    What do you want to bet?

    I'm not going to do all your research for you because your bigotries against religion are clearly emotional, rather than factual. Facts rarely overcome emotion. But a couple of samples.

    In 1250, the world population was about 320 million. The crusades are estimated to have killed between 1 and 3 million persons total (all sides). That is 0.63% of world wide population.

    In 1550, the world population was about 480 million. The Spanish Inquisition killed 150,000 persons or about 0.03% of the world's population.

    1950 world population was about 2.5 billion (2500 million). In its relatively short existence (about 85 years from roughly 1905 to about 1990) the Communists in Russia/USSR murdered about 20 million persons. That is about 0.8% of the world population at the time.

    Total murders by worldwide atheistic communists (1905 to about 2015) are estimated at somewhere between 90 million and 110 million persons. 100 million persons out of a worldwide population in 1950 of 2.5 Billion is a full 4%. Even against a worldwide population of 4 Billion persons (~1980) gives a death toll of 2.5% of total world population.

    Good luck reaching those numbers for direct religiously motivated murders such as forced conversions.

    It is estimated that upwards of 48 million American Indians died after Western Europeans arrived. However, 90 to 95% of these deaths were from diseases. There is scant evidence that there was any widespread effort to use disease in warfare against the American Indians. When early vaccination efforts were discovered for smallpox, American Indians were often vaccinated right along with Western Settlers. Assuming 10% of deaths were deliberately inflicted, that is 5 million deaths. Even if we were to attribute all of these to religious motives--an absurd attribution given that most of wars against American Indians were not waged for religious reasons, but for land--that is still only 0.8% of the worldwide population of 610 million in 1700.

    Atheistic Communist murders are well over twice the total of all dead (38 million) from all wars in the 20th century.

    And this numbers do not include the murders and war dead laid directly at the feet of the Nazis who were not quite as officially atheistic as the Communists, but whose leadership was hostile to religion and whose ideology was clearly anti-religious and based on strictly objective "scientific" theories such as natural selection that lead directly to Eugenics.

    Whether by raw numbers or by percentage of worldwide population at the time, Atheistic Communism has Christianity beat by several times over.

    If you have the courage of possibly failing, spend the time trying to make the numbers work out the other way.

    Let us remember, when Christians murder, they are acting contrary to their doctrines. Which does happen.

    But when Atheistic Communists or Nazis murder, they are acting completely in harmony with their doctrines.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Whats the common factor? The ideology or the enforcement method?
    One leads to the other. Atheistic communists' ideology gives no counter-balance against murder, starvation, or torture at all. NONE. Nazi Eugenics are based on the godless theory of spontaneous, random chance emergence of life and survival of the fittest.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Using this logic during the middle ages one could say christianity has killed more and oppressed more than any other regime at that historical time.

    Then before that, what ever ideology was common in that era.
    Not at all sure that the most common ideology always kills and oppresses more than minority ideologies. I'll leave you to run the numbers and provide some evidence.

    I note again that the proportion of the world murdered by Christianity seems to several times lower than the proportion of the population murdered by atheistic communists and Nazis from the examples I provided above.

    Counter examples are welcome...if you can provide them. But be forewarned, your beliefs may be attacked by the data you find.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Socialism is the tree communism is the branch.

    U.S. is operating under a from of socialism too.
    And where socialism in this nation is most prevalent, we see the greatest economic, social, and moral poverty.

    Rejection of the social values taught by Christianity for a couple of thousand years leads directly to poverty and problems.

    Do not covet, do not steal or lie. Do not have sex outside of marriage. Be faithful to your spouse and support your family. Honor your parents. Do unto others as you'd have them do to you.

    Nobody is a perfect Christian, and some are worse than others. But one who honestly attempts to live Christian teachings has much better odds of avoiding poverty, crime, and social ills than one who rejects these social teachings outright.

    Atheists may include these same values for non-theist reasons.

    But atheists are also entirely free to reject these values without violating any basic tenants of not believing in any gods.

    One can argue about how much The Church or individuals departed from Christian teachings in various cases.

    The Communists and Nazis did not have to depart from Atheism in the least to carry out any of their most brutal crimes.

    I don't make a point of rubbing atheists' noses in these facts so long as they avoid repeating lies about Christianity supposedly causing more death or oppression than any other ideology. But when atheists decide to attack Christianity (or religion generally), I will bring up some very unpleasant and inconvenient facts.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    What do you want to bet?

    I'm not going to do all your research for you because your bigotries against religion are clearly emotional, rather than factual. Facts rarely overcome emotion. But a couple of samples.

    In 1250, the world population was about 320 million. The crusades are estimated to have killed between 1 and 3 million persons total (all sides). That is 0.63% of world wide population.

    In 1550, the world population was about 480 million. The Spanish Inquisition killed 150,000 persons or about 0.03% of the world's population.

    1950 world population was about 2.5 billion (2500 million). In its relatively short existence (about 85 years from roughly 1905 to about 1990) the Communists in Russia/USSR murdered about 20 million persons. That is about 0.8% of the world population at the time.

    Total murders by worldwide atheistic communists (1905 to about 2015) are estimated at somewhere between 90 million and 110 million persons. 100 million persons out of a worldwide population in 1950 of 2.5 Billion is a full 4%. Even against a worldwide population of 4 Billion persons (~1980) gives a death toll of 2.5% of total world population.

    Good luck reaching those numbers for direct religiously motivated murders such as forced conversions.

    It is estimated that upwards of 48 million American Indians died after Western Europeans arrived. However, 90 to 95% of these deaths were from diseases. There is scant evidence that there was any widespread effort to use disease in warfare against the American Indians. When early vaccination efforts were discovered for smallpox, American Indians were often vaccinated right along with Western Settlers. Assuming 10% of deaths were deliberately inflicted, that is 5 million deaths. Even if we were to attribute all of these to religious motives--an absurd attribution given that most of wars against American Indians were not waged for religious reasons, but for land--that is still only 0.8% of the worldwide population of 610 million in 1700.

    Atheistic Communist murders are well over twice the total of all dead (38 million) from all wars in the 20th century.

    And this numbers do not include the murders and war dead laid directly at the feet of the Nazis who were not quite as officially atheistic as the Communists, but whose leadership was hostile to religion and whose ideology was clearly anti-religious and based on strictly objective "scientific" theories such as natural selection that lead directly to Eugenics.

    Whether by raw numbers or by percentage of worldwide population at the time, Atheistic Communism has Christianity beat by several times over.

    If you have the courage of possibly failing, spend the time trying to make the numbers work out the other way.

    Let us remember, when Christians murder, they are acting contrary to their doctrines. Which does happen.

    But when Atheistic Communists or Nazis murder, they are acting completely in harmony with their doctrines.

    Charles
    LOL...you are factually playing with figures, and including emotional issue which I a am not. I as an agnostic have no emotional investment in the issue one way or the other.

    I'll take you up on your bet especially since you leave so much out and purposefully misconstrue the figures to fit your bias.

    What was the world population in 1990 if you are going to use the figures until then? Why the false claim of direct motivation of an ideology? A claim I never made.

    Yet you leave out manifest destiny, the slaughter of 200,000 filipinos, again the crusades against other European ages during the whole dark ages not just a slice of or an era that fits your agenda.

    You leave out the English inquisitions, the French, etc...why? You leave out that christians dropped bombs slaughters thousands of innocents.

    You leave out the hundreds of thousands that died in a war to centralize control and destroy federalism, a war Lincoln blamed on God, a war he accurately pointed out both sides claim to have god on their side.

    Droning innocents today? Done by atheists? Embargoes that starve people only done by atheists?

    You are very deluded, obviously biased and dishonest with your tactics if your read my post carefully, it has little do with religion itself other than to show your asinine dishonesty.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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