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Thread: Question about OC and posted signs in OH

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    Exclamation Question about OC and posted signs in OH

    I just have a question about OC in OH that I can't seem to dig up a definitive answer on. I looked at the stickies and I see where in 2010 it looks like a bill was passed state wide that preempts local ordinances regarding concealed carry, but I am not sure that includes non CCW holders who open carry. Where I live (in an apartment) there is a sign posted that says no guns or dangerous ordinance "as per Ohio Revised Code". Now because of the above articles I've read about the preemption of local ordinances, does that mean I can or cannot carry here? It puts me in a weird position if I can't, because when I go on walks I have to walk thru the complex to get out to the public road which means if in actuality I can't open carry in the complex then I could get in trouble for doing so even though I'm on my way out when I do.

    Last edited by AnonCarryOH; 05-11-2015 at 02:36 AM.

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    Questions about OC and posted signs in OH

    **To mods or webmaster.. I posted this thread in the OH stories section previously, when I added an image to the post it caused some sort of catastrophic error that wiped the thread but left the title in the thread directory / forum. I do not know what caused that to happen, sorry!!**
    ----
    I just have a question about OC in OH that I can't seem to dig up a definitive answer on. I looked at the stickies and I see where in 2010 it looks like a bill was passed state wide that preempts local ordinances regarding concealed carry, but I am not sure that includes non CCW holders who open carry. Where I live (in an apartment) there is a sign posted that says no guns or dangerous ordinance "as per Ohio Revised Code". Now because of the above articles I've read about the preemption of local ordinances, does that mean I can or cannot carry here? It puts me in a weird position if I can't, because when I go on walks I have to walk thru the complex to get out to the public road which means if in actuality I can't open carry in the complex then I could get in trouble for doing so even though I'm on my way out when I do.


    --Moderator note -- the thread did not "disappear" - was still there. I just now merged them.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-07-2015 at 09:11 PM.

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    In Ohio, "no guns" signs carry the force of law and apply to both open or concealed carry. The preemption against local ordinances only affects local governmental subdivisions of the state. Private property owners can post their property, as it appears this apartment complex has done, and violating that signage is criminal trespass, a 4th degree misdemeanor.

    the only way that preemption would apply to this posting is if the property owner is actually the city or other political subdivision of the state.

    Now, there is one thing in Ohio law that will help you - from http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126 Section (C) (3) (b):

    (b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after September 9, 2008, enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant's guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises.
    So, *if* you have a Concealed Handgun License *and* you entered into the rental agreement on or after September 9, 2008 you can legally carry on those premises. The landlord may not be aware of that, so you could still end up getting hassled...
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    Well, my father has been living here since 2002, but he has to re sign a lease every year, so I wonder if that counts as on or after since it's renewed / updated every year.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonCarryOH View Post
    Well, my father has been living here since 2002, but he has to re sign a lease every year, so I wonder if that counts as on or after since it's renewed / updated every year.
    Yep, 2009, 2010, 2011 etc. is after 2008 - you are kidding, right?

    Residential leases are normally written for a period of one year. Any newly signed such document constitutes a new lease w/new start date.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-12-2015 at 03:42 AM. Reason: fixed
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    Get your CHL.


    Duties of licensed individual.

    2923.126(C)(3)

    "(b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after September 9, 2008, enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant's guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises."

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126
    Last edited by pirateguy191; 05-12-2015 at 07:27 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonCarryOH View Post
    I just have a question about OC in OH that I can't seem to dig up a definitive answer on...
    You're new here, so I don't imagine that you'll get your knuckles rapped, but just to let you know - the moderator and owners of this site look down on posting the same thing to multiple places.

    Hopefully you have carefully read what JustAShooter has posted elsewhere - and what pirateguy191 has posted above. Both have provided excellent information.
    Last edited by BB62; 05-12-2015 at 08:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pirateguy191 View Post
    Get your CHL.

    Duties of licensed individual.

    2923.126(C)(3)

    "(b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after September 9, 2008, enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant's guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises."

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126
    I tend to forget about that one because it's not encountered much. But to state the case simply, in Ohio, there are a quite a few good reasons to obtain a concealed handgun license, even if you intend to carry openly all the time.

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    I wasn't sure how that works, since I've never signed leases or anything myself. Anyway, based on the law and the fact I don't have a CCW yet, it looks like what I'm going to have to do is put my gun in its case and put it in the trunk. Then I'll have to put my magazines in the glovebox and then drive my car and park somewhere outside the complex where it's legal to carry. Then I can get out of the car and retrieve my firearm and stuff a magazine into it and put it in my holster so I can start my walk.
    Ohio with it's weird transportation laws has essentially made it almost 'not worth it' to open carry unless you also possess a CCW.

  10. #10
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonCarryOH View Post
    ...
    Ohio with it's weird transportation laws has essentially made it almost 'not worth it' to open carry unless you also possess a CCW.
    It's FAR better than it used to be when you also had to unload your magazines.

    As it is, you are making things too complicated. Put your magazine(s) in a case of their own and keep both cases in the trunk. There is no requirement to keep them separated by a certain distance, just separately contained. In fact, one container can be inside the other (such as the gun in it's case and the case and magazines in a duffle bag).
    Last edited by MyWifeSaidYes; 05-23-2015 at 07:39 PM.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    In Ohio, "no guns" signs carry the force of law and apply to both open or concealed carry. The preemption against local ordinances only affects local governmental subdivisions of the state. Private property owners can post their property, as it appears this apartment complex has done, and violating that signage is criminal trespass, a 4th degree misdemeanor.

    the only way that preemption would apply to this posting is if the property owner is actually the city or other political subdivision of the state.

    Now, there is one thing in Ohio law that will help you - from http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126 Section (C) (3) (b):



    So, *if* you have a Concealed Handgun License *and* you entered into the rental agreement on or after September 9, 2008 you can legally carry on those premises. The landlord may not be aware of that, so you could still end up getting hassled...
    However, the state approved sign that is to be posted on state government buildings that the OP refers to and posted has no force and effect if posted on a private building. That sign is designated for government buildings only: see R.C. 2923.1212. R.C. 2923.126 has no relation to R.C. 2923.1212.

    All a private business has to do is post a sign that says "NO WEAPONS."

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    Regular Member JustaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    However, the state approved sign that is to be posted on state government buildings that the OP refers to and posted has no force and effect if posted on a private building. That sign is designated for government buildings only: see R.C. 2923.1212. R.C. 2923.126 has no relation to R.C. 2923.1212.
    That would appear to be your interpretation of the law, I and others disagree - although I agree that it is required for government buildings, I see nothing that prohibits it use for private property. Further, I do not believe it has been settled either way by case law, but if you can provide a cite I would be interested in reading it. Until such time as it it is settled, I would recommend against anyone carrying past such a sign on private property unless you are interested in becoming the test case.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
    That would appear to be your interpretation of the law, I and others disagree - although I agree that it is required for government buildings, I see nothing that prohibits it use for private property. Further, I do not believe it has been settled either way by case law, but if you can provide a cite I would be interested in reading it. Until such time as it it is settled, I would recommend against anyone carrying past such a sign on private property unless you are interested in becoming the test case.
    State v. Lowe, 112 Ohio St. 3d 507 - Ohio: Supreme Court 2007
    {¶ 9} The primary goal of statutory construction is to ascertain and give effect to the legislature's intent in enacting the statute. Brooks v. Ohio State Univ. (1996), 111 Ohio App.3d 342, 349, 676 N.E.2d 162. The court must first look to the plain language of the statute itself to determine the legislative intent. State ex rel. Burrows v. Indus. Comm. (1997), 78 Ohio St.3d 78, 81, 676 N.E.2d 519. We apply a statute as it is written when its meaning is unambiguous and definite. Portage Cty. Bd. of Commrs. v. Akron, 109 Ohio St.3d 106, 2006-Ohio-954, 846 N.E.2d 478, ¶ 52, citing State ex rel. Savarese v. Buckeye Local School Dist. Bd. of Edn. (1996), 74 Ohio St.3d 543, 545, 660 N.E.2d 463. An unambiguous statute must be applied in a manner consistent with the plain meaning of the statutory language. State ex rel. Burrows, 78 Ohio St.3d at 81, 676 N.E.2d 519.
    State v. Porterfield, 106 Ohio St. 3d 5 - Ohio: Supreme Court 2005
    Parsing individual words is useful only within a context. The Revised Code, like any document, is designed to be understood as a whole. "Words and phrases that have acquired a technical or particular meaning, whether by legislative definition or otherwise, shall be construed accordingly." R.C. 1.42.
    Boley v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co., 125 Ohio St. 3d 510 - Ohio: Supreme Court 2010
    {¶ 21} Our role, as this court recognized in State ex rel. Myers v. Spencer Twp. Rural School Dist. Bd. of Edn. (1917), 95 Ohio St. 367, 373, 116 N.E. 516, is to evaluate a statute "as a whole and giv[e] such interpretation as will give effect to every word and clause in it. No part should be treated as superfluous unless that is manifestly required, and the court should avoid that construction which renders a provision meaningless or inoperative." Indeed, as we determined in Weaver v. Edwin Shaw Hosp., 104 Ohio St.3d 390, 2004-Ohio-6549, 819 N.E.2d 1079, statutes "`may not be restricted, constricted, qualified, narrowed, enlarged or abridged; significance and effect should, if possible, be accorded to every word, phrase, sentence and part of an act.'" Id. at ¶ 13, quoting Wachendorf v. Shaver (1948), 149 Ohio St. 231, 36 O.O. 554, 78 N.E.2d 370, paragraph five of the syllabus.
    R.C. 2923.1212:
    The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: "Unless otherwise authorized by law...no person shall knowingly...”
    Where in R.C. 2923.1212 does it authorize private businesses to post that sign? It does not. Another way to say "unless otherwise” is “except under other circumstances.” So, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, where in the law does it mandate/require a private business to post that sign? It does not.

    When have you ever seen a sign that said “Unless otherwise authorized by law, no trespassing.” You haven't.

    The Ohio attorney general's “Concealed Carry Laws Manual” states the following:
    “An example of a standard warning sign approved for use on state buildings appears below. If you see this sign, it means that you cannot bring your concealed handgun inside. Businesses and persons wishing to post such signs are strongly advised to consult their legal counsel for language, style, format, and placement.” (My Bold)

    Why does the Attorney General say that? For at least three reasons, first, he cannot give legal advice to the public, second, the sign takes on a different legal grammatical meaning when placed on a private business and third, R.C. 2923,1212 has no relation to R.C. 2923.126 even though both are sub-sections of R.C. 2923.12.

    R.C. 2901.04 Rules of construction for statutes and rules of procedure.
    (A) Except as otherwise provided in division (C) or (D) of this section, sections of the Revised Code defining offenses or penalties shall be strictly construed against the state, and liberally construed in favor of the accused.
    2901.22 Degrees of culpability attached to mental states.
    (B) A person acts knowingly, regardless of purpose, when the person is aware that the person's conduct will probably cause a certain result or will probably be of a certain nature. A person has knowledge of circumstances when the person is aware that such circumstances probably exist. When knowledge of the existence of a particular fact is an element of an offense, such knowledge is established if a person subjectively believes that there is a high probability of its existence and fails to make inquiry or acts with a conscious purpose to avoid learning the fact.
    Opinions are subjective. The test for determining whether a defendant acted knowingly is a subjective one, based on the knowledge, beliefs and circumstances of the individual defendant. State v. Elliott (1995), 104 Ohio App .3d 812, 821, 663 N.E.2d 412.

    All of us are presumed to know the law; citizens, store owners and their agents, judges and law enforcement are presumed to know the law.
    State v. Parker (1994) 68 Ohio St.3d 283, 286, 6226 N.E.2d 106
    State v. Robinson, 187 Ohio St. 253, 2010-Ohio-543, ¶24, 931 N.E.2d 1110

    Open carry in Ohio predates the federal and state constitutions. See R.C. 9.68.

    When shopping at a store you are presumed to be shopping with privilege. Your privilege is not revoked until a valid sign is posted in a conspicuous place. See R.C. 2923.126(C)(b)(3)(a). If a valid sign is posted and you are carrying then you do not have privilege.

    R.C. 2923.126(C)(b)(3)(a) in part says: “Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.” Remember what the courts have said. Every word has meaning in a statute. Also, "expression units est exclusion alterius." Freely translated, the phrase means the express mention of one thing implies the exclusion of another. See Saslaw v. Weiss (1938), 133 Ohio St. 496, 498, 11 O.O. 185, 186-187, 14 N.E.2d 930, 932 and State v. Chappell, 149 Ohio Misc. 2d 80 - Ohio: Court of Common Pleas, Criminal Court 2008 ¶36. Being notified to leave by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either without a valid posting of a sign is excluded from the statute.

    You may disagree, but I have personal experience as it relates to guns, signs and trespass. I know of what I speak. And yes I prevailed. I would however suggest that if you are asked to leave by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either in the presence of a police officer, leave.

    I would bet any business posting the state's sign would be unable to explain the meaning of that sign. I would bet a business posting the state's sign would say they never consulted with an attorney to determine if the state's sign was appropriate. Remember, the business owner is presumed to know the law.

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