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Thread: Open Carry Racism article in REVERB

  1. #1
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Open Carry Racism article in REVERB

    The article is interesting, but the experiment is more random than scientific. The premise is that race matters when exercising gun rights; i.e. police respect the gun rights of whites but not African Americans.

    Link: http://reverbpress.com/justice/open-...m-in-policing/

    Do you think this experiment could be duplicated in a more scientific manner?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Red face Wow, I learned a lot...

    ...from reading that article and some of the comments below it. For example, I had no idea that:

    • NRA supports open carry
    • the GOP (I assume he's referring to the Republican party) supports open carry
    • the GOP is funded by the NRA
    • the NRA-funded GOP control the police
    • Texas is "ground zero" of the open carry movement
    • white OCers hate black people in general and black OCers in particular (Danbus, jahwarrior, the_hustleman, et al might be surprised to learn that, too.)
    • open carry activism is much more prevalent in the South


    I now consider myself much better-informed for having read that balanced, thoroughly-reseached article and the ensuing logical, well-thought-out comments. NOT.
    Last edited by Eeyore; 05-18-2015 at 01:50 PM.
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    ...

    I now consider myself much better-informed for having read that balanced, thoroughly-reseached article and the ensuing logical, well-thought-out comments. NOT.
    Eyeore,

    I was clear about the shortcomings of the article in my first posting. I do not ever read the dribble that comes after an article posted in a blog like Reverb.

    What do you think about the premise of the article that race matters when one tries to exercise the right to keep and bear arms? This is a topic worthy of meaningful discussion.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Yes their is a difference / problem.

    Id like to see how it would work out if the white guy and the black guy,,
    dressed the same, carrying the same, walking, Together!!!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 05-18-2015 at 02:36 PM.
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    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Implicit Association Testing - learn about yourself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test

    Project Implicit, take the test. It has a huge sample base.
    https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Do you think this experiment could be duplicated in a more scientific manner?
    Well, for a start it Wasn't any sort of experiment - -

    Different states
    Different departments
    Different manner of doing things

    That's like conducting an experiment to determine how popular sweet tea is by having part one of the experiment take place among ice fishers in Wisconsin in January and the second half in Mobile on July 4th.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 05-18-2015 at 04:10 PM.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Well, for a start it Wasn't any sort of experiment - -

    Different states
    Different departments
    Different manner of doing things

    That's like conducting an experiment to determine how popular sweet tea is by having part one of the experiment take place among ice fishers in Wisconsin in January and the second half in Mobile on July 4th.
    I think that the premise (or hypothesis) was valid: Police respond differently to armed citizens based upon the race of the citizen. Validating the hypothesis requires a larger sample size as well as the elimination of variables other than skin color.

    If we were to validate the hypothesis, what could gun activists do about it?
    Last edited by Thundar; 05-18-2015 at 05:17 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Even if cops in a certain place or time respond differently to a black OCer v a white OCer does not mean that it is racism. And doing such experimenting with long guns, IMO, is not the same as doing it with holstered pistol OC.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    The article is interesting, but the experiment is more random than scientific. The premise is that race matters when exercising gun rights; i.e. police respect the gun rights of whites but not African Americans.
    I wouldn't be surprised to learn that minorities get treated differently when OC in some cases than do whites.

    Neither would it surprise me to learn that women get treated differently than men.

    Nor that young looking persons get treated differently than the obviously middle-aged or senior crowd.

    I can imagine that those with visible tats or piercings or dressed more "creatively" get treated differently than do those dressed in conservative, business casual attire.

    I suspect an ever larger difference takes place once an initial contact is made based on speech and response to the officer, with the well spoken and respectful being treated differently than the foul-mouthed or combative.

    None of which is to say that minorities should be treated differently. Just recognizing some of what I think is human nature.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Yes their is a difference / problem.

    Id like to see how it would work out if the white guy and the black guy,,
    dressed the same, carrying the same, walking, Together!!!
    Well let's see. I've done this with a friend or two who happened to be black and we live in the South and there was no problem. Go figure.

    This "test" is pretty much invalid. One would have to have performed it in the same location, with the same traffic patterns operating, and the same officer making the contact. And even then it would be questionable because the second test case would have tainted the officer's reactions. Therefore one cannot draw a valid scientific conclusion from these sample cases.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 05-19-2015 at 08:02 AM.
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Bmwag

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Yes their is a difference / problem.

    Id like to see how it would work out if the white guy and the black guy,,
    dressed the same, carrying the same, walking, Together!!!
    Well actually we had such an incident a while back at the Waterside in Norfolk. It was one of the Danbus incidents.

    I was actually thinking of the Norfolk BMWAG incidents when I started this thread.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Well actually we had such an incident a while back at the Waterside in Norfolk. It was one of the Danbus incidents.

    I was actually thinking of the Norfolk BMWAG incidents when I started this thread.
    I do hate to do my own research,,, and I do remember that Danbus was a real trailblazer for the cause,,,
    Sooo could you please hook me up with some links to any comparable incidents, news, law or threads?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Eyeore,

    I was clear about the shortcomings of the article in my first posting. I do not ever read the drivel that comes after an article posted in a blog like Reverb.

    What do you think about the premise of the article that race matters when one tries to exercise the right to keep and bear arms? This is a topic worthy of meaningful discussion.
    Fixed it for you. Yes, this is a timely topic, given the recent attention to police discrimination/over-reaction/militarization.

    I think white OCers are more aware of these problems than whites in general. This forum has plenty of examples of white OCers being treated in the way the black OCer was in the "article."
    I think black OCers probably experience more hassles than white OCers, blacks in general, and certainly more than white non-OCers. Being a BMWAG is a double-whammy for them. Unfortunate, but true.
    I think to some degree it's understandable why the police over-react (crime statistics, ineffective "justice system," siege mentality, poor screening, poor training, bad attitudes, militarization, etc.). It's a job I don't think I could do, certainly not well.
    I also think it's wrong. I think society needs to demand a cultural change in the police forces--to stop protecting their "bad apples" no matter what, and transition back to a public safety mindset from the current emphasis on law enforcement.

    In many ways, the the blacks vs police issue mirrors our constant debate over how to dress when OCing. How you look and act broadcasts how you see yourself and how you want others to react to you. You can't dress like a gang-banger, Hell's Angel, cowboy, or giant stuffed sports-team mascot and then be surprised or outraged when people treat you as one. It's not fair, but it's reality. I suspect a young black man in khakis and a polo shirt will get treated differently by nearly everybody (including police) than a young black man clomping around in a hoodie and untied hiking boots. Ditto for a young Hispanic or white man, for that matter. Some people see LACs as either troublemakers or--for some police--challenges to their authoritah who must be put in their place, and react accordingly. Dressing in baggy pants (danger! gang member!) or leather and studs (danger! Son of Anarchy! 12 dead in Waco!) or in head-to-toe camo (Danger! Wacko white-supremacist militia gun-nut!) just magnifies the effect for people pre-disposed to that reaction.
    Last edited by Eeyore; 05-26-2015 at 04:06 PM. Reason: html
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    In aggregate, police don't want people to have guns. With concealed weapons, the lack of apparent guns is a polite fiction. Once the weapon is observed, it's like Pavlov rang his bell. The degree to which the bell makes one figuratively salivate IS related to other factors of perceived risk. In the special case of the AR, people associate them with war and movie theaters - which triggers a more visceral response. Also, Chris Rock says it best, "there isn't a white guy in this audience who will change places with me, and I'm rich!" Police perceive that more crime is associated with minorities. The truth is unimportant in any single situation because while we know that all black men in saggy pants are not criminals, we incorrectly associate the three observable characteristics with criminals..

    Rewind to the post-Civil War Era: Texas became the FIRST state to prohibit ALL carry of pistols in order to keep freedmen from carrying them. (That and we had a governor who refused to cede power to his elected successor.)

    So now someone takes a one-example anecdote and draws broad conclusions. I think the story is bad journalism and while it makes a point about an "obvious" issue, it's kind of like citing a movie or novel as an example of what can happen IRL.


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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    The article is interesting, but the experiment is more random than scientific. The premise is that race matters when exercising gun rights; i.e. police respect the gun rights of whites but not African Americans.

    Link: http://reverbpress.com/justice/open-...m-in-policing/

    Do you think this experiment could be duplicated in a more scientific manner?
    Yes, I most certainly think it could be duplicated in a more scientific manner. Sending two people -- one white and one black -- out on the streets to see what the cops will do, however, is hardly scientific, but is most certainly unnecessarily dangerous.

    Tests for racism have been around for more than a century. I was exposed to one of the more common tests, a random collection of photographs of people randomly selected from the streets of a number of cities. From what I understand, more than 5,000 such photographs were taken, at random, and without the subject's knowledge. The subjects were approached only after the photograph was taken and background information gathered. Roughly half were women, and races accurately reflected the populations of the various races in the U.S. Each photograph was stripped of all identifying information except a randomized serial number. Meanwhile, the subjects' age, gender, and race, occupations, and current purpose and demeanor were added to the database.

    The test has been given to many groups of randomly-selected individuals, including students, citizens, cops, employers, members of the military, city officials. The pictures were shown with only one question, usually a yes or no question like "Would you hire this individual?" and "Is this person a good person or a bad person?" Tests were completed in double-blind construct, so the testor never knew which test subject gave what answers. This was done to minimize testing bias.

    Results: Most people are racially biased, regardless of whether they understand it, believe it, or not.
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    What I saw were citizens being subjected to cops acting unlawfully, likely not held to account for threatening to use lethal force, in once incident, where it was not clearly justified. The "rest of the story" would/should be quite a read...if available.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    1245A Defender, here is a start.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    I do hate to do my own research,,, and I do remember that Danbus was a real trailblazer for the cause,,,
    Sooo could you please hook me up with some links to any comparable incidents, news, law or threads?
    Readers digest version:

    Danbus, AKA BMWAG - Black man with a gun, was detained at gunpoint in Norfolk for open carrying in downtown Norfolk. He sued Norfolk and the city settled for $10,000 rather than go to trial. VCDL went to protest the treatment of Danbus at a Norfolk City Council meeting. After the meeting many VCDL members went to Hooters, which is at Waterside. While at Watrerside Danbus and a white VCDL member were stopped together by Norfolk PD and told erroniously that they were tresspassing. The two denied that they were actually tresspassing. White VCDL member released, BMWAG arrested. Danbus was later aquitted because Waterside is public property. In both instances Norfolk PDs reaction to open carry by a black citizen open carrying but breaking no law was different than the reaction to white open carriers.

    Here are some links to start you off:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ghlight=danbus

    Post #19: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...hlight=hooters
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Wowwie!!!

    Thanks Thundar ,, I read it all....
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

    if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

    if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.
    Still no crime other than looking like....without evidence it all should mean squat to the enFORCEr.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    ...from reading that article and some of the comments below it. For example, I had no idea that:

    • NRA supports open carry
    • the GOP (I assume he's referring to the Republican party) supports open carry
    • the GOP is funded by the NRA
    • the NRA-funded GOP control the police
    • Texas is "ground zero" of the open carry movement
    • white OCers hate black people in general and black OCers in particular (Danbus, jahwarrior, the_hustleman, et al might be surprised to learn that, too.)
    • open carry activism is much more prevalent in the South


    I now consider myself much better-informed for having read that balanced, thoroughly-reseached article and the ensuing logical, well-thought-out comments. NOT.
    OMG!! Am I supposed to hate those guys! Jeezus! I knew Danbus was black, but only because I saw a video of him years ago. Or, maybe because he said so, I can no longer recall.

    But, those other guys?!!?! They're black!?!!!

    OMG!! I had no idea! Man! I've been falling down on the racist job! Hell, I'm not even sure I can qualify as a racist after such a failing: I didn't even pick up so much as an around-the-corner hint about their race, much less that it wasn't white.

    (/sarcasm)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

    if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.
    The problems I see with this line of thinking are mostly:
    a) you cannot tell by appearances, as much as we all like to think we can. We don't have the wherewithal to exercise "Men In Black"-like quick thinking to shoot little Suzie instead of snarling aliens.
    b) from what I've read and heard, even black officers tend to second glance black men, regardless of dress.
    c) even a thug deserves to be treated like a proper citizen until a crime is committed BY HIM or HER. Just because someone isn't you or a mimic of you doesn't make them less than you. I am as suspicious and judgmental as most people, but I am not exercising authority of the state to harass and detain, only to observe and postulate. Our police need to stick to solving crimes and averting crime by means other than being a nuisance.

    We implemented a drug testing program at my employer in 1989. It was a high-risk, safety-specific requirement. As we rolled in out, I was one of the folks charged with carrying the program education to the field. I can still hear as clear as yesterday one guy who told me "you can tell when they're on drugs, you can just tell!" (his accent pronounced "tell" like "tail".) And, no, you can't just tell when someone is a criminal.

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    Appearances

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

    if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.
    Thanks to NoNameIsGood for calling my attention to this post.

    I well remember an encounter in a 7-Eleven several years ago.

    It was after dark. I was OCing. The clerk, who knew me as a bit of a regular, finally asked me about my OCed gun after months of ringing me up. I chatted a minute. The guy next in line behind me mentioned that he carried. Since it wasn't OC, I assumed the gun was being CCed.

    I forget the evolution of the conversation, but I eventually asked the guy whether and where he was carrying. In good spirit, and in support of self-defense, he produced both his CC permit and the smallish Glock he was carrying in the back pocket of his blue jeans. Moreoever, he kept the muzzle pointed down, pinching the grip between fingers and thumb, rather than a firing grip.

    So, what has any of this got to do with anything?

    He was almost as thug-gangsta as you could get. Not totally: little or no bling. No visible tattoos. But, the look was definitely headed in that direction.

    Oh, and he was black.

    Right then and there I had an in-my-face lesson about appearances.

    Rights are rights are rights are rights.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    c) even a thug deserves to be treated like a proper citizen until a crime is committed BY HIM or HER. Just because someone isn't you or a mimic of you doesn't make them less than you. I am as suspicious and judgmental as most people, but I am not exercising authority of the state to harass and detain, only to observe and postulate. Our police need to stick to solving crimes and averting crime by means other than being a nuisance.
    Nobody should be harassed because of race. But to a very large degree, we all get to choose how to dress, whether to sport tats and piercings, how we comport ourselves, and especially how we respond to others.

    One doesn't avert many crimes by passively doing nothing.

    Anything police do to avert crime (as contrasted with waiting to write a report and try to solve a crime after it occurs) is going to be viewed as harassing to some.

    As a middle-aged, white, male, I expect I would garner a fair bit more attention if I were to sit in my parked car next to a random grade school than would an elderly black woman, all else being equal. I might have a dozen legit reasons to be sitting in my car on that public road. And depending on how I responded to whomever it was who stopped by to check (teacher, parent, cop), I might allay most all fears rather quickly. I hope that someone would check rather than waiting for something to happen. Being asked to account for my perfectly legal but statistically concerning conduct is a far smaller infringement of my rights than would be any child abduction be on the rights of the victim.

    A few years ago random cars took to parking in front of my home. When I'd go out and ask the drivers if they were ok, they were always just "waiting to meet a friend." Since I live two blocks from a major commercial area with lots of amenities, my quiet residential street seemed a strange place for so many random people to be waiting to meet a friend. I figured the friend had something to sell that was less than legal.

    I made a point of going out to check on the welfare of every driver who stopped in front of my house. In the process I very visibly noted their license plate number. Once or twice in the middle of the day, it was a salesman who was enjoying the shade from my tree to eat his lunch in his car or safely make a phone call. But every other time it was someone waiting for a friend.

    I took to politely, but firmly telling these folks it was a bad place to wait for their friend because of some recent activity that had the neighbors and police on high alert; and I'd hate for innocent folks to get hassled.

    One night I happened upon who I figured might be "the friend" when instead of the usual polite line about "meeting a friend" I got attitude about "a public street and his right to be there." I flat out told him that whatever he was buying or selling we didn't want. That really set him off which gave me a fine reason to report the unknown and confrontational driver parked in my neighborhood after dark.

    The local PD had him lit up less than 2 minutes later. I have no idea of the details of what took place. But it took over half an hour before he and the PD were both gone. And we never again had anyone parking along our street after dark, "waiting for a friend."

    I never saw an actual sale. And I don't want to have doors kicked in over a little private pot use. But I will make very sure that nobody gets to enjoy anonymity on my street. If I (or most of my neighbors) see someone I (they) don't know, I'm (we are) going to get to know them. If they consider that "hassling" or otherwise makes them uncomfortable enough to avoid my street, so be it.

    The scum can deal drugs, and case houses, and vandalize, and commit other crimes in neighborhoods where folks don't want to see anyone "hassled".

    And for the record, my street is more racially diverse than the average in Utah. Skin color has nothing to do any of the above personal experiences.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 05-29-2015 at 12:23 AM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member jasonstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    17

    open carry by non-whites

    So I'm at my local Fry's here in Phoenix yesterday with the wife. Walk in the door and there's a Mexican open carrying. Not a minute later, in the produce section I notice a black male in early 20's open carrying. I had to smile. Haven't seen any open carry in weeks, and suddenly 2 "minorities" carrying proud in the span of minutes. And rounding it out was me, white male pushing middle age. Nobody took a second glance, nobody seemed to care. Gotta love Arizona
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants - Thomas Jefferson
    Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety - Benjamin Franklin
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good - George Washington

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