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Open Carry Racism article in REVERB

Eeyore

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Aug 25, 2007
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the meanest city in the stupidest state
Wow, I learned a lot...

...from reading that article and some of the comments below it. For example, I had no idea that:

  • NRA supports open carry
  • the GOP (I assume he's referring to the Republican party) supports open carry
  • the GOP is funded by the NRA
  • the NRA-funded GOP control the police
  • Texas is "ground zero" of the open carry movement
  • white OCers hate black people in general and black OCers in particular (Danbus, jahwarrior, the_hustleman, et al might be surprised to learn that, too.)
  • open carry activism is much more prevalent in the South

I now consider myself much better-informed for having read that balanced, thoroughly-reseached article and the ensuing logical, well-thought-out comments. [size=+2]NOT.[/size]
 
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Thundar

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...

I now consider myself much better-informed for having read that balanced, thoroughly-reseached article and the ensuing logical, well-thought-out comments. [size=+2]NOT.[/size]

Eyeore,

I was clear about the shortcomings of the article in my first posting. I do not ever read the dribble that comes after an article posted in a blog like Reverb.

What do you think about the premise of the article that race matters when one tries to exercise the right to keep and bear arms? This is a topic worthy of meaningful discussion.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Do you think this experiment could be duplicated in a more scientific manner?
Well, for a start it Wasn't any sort of experiment - -

Different states
Different departments
Different manner of doing things

That's like conducting an experiment to determine how popular sweet tea is by having part one of the experiment take place among ice fishers in Wisconsin in January and the second half in Mobile on July 4th.
 
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Thundar

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Well, for a start it Wasn't any sort of experiment - -

Different states
Different departments
Different manner of doing things

That's like conducting an experiment to determine how popular sweet tea is by having part one of the experiment take place among ice fishers in Wisconsin in January and the second half in Mobile on July 4th.

I think that the premise (or hypothesis) was valid: Police respond differently to armed citizens based upon the race of the citizen. Validating the hypothesis requires a larger sample size as well as the elimination of variables other than skin color.

If we were to validate the hypothesis, what could gun activists do about it?
 
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deepdiver

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Even if cops in a certain place or time respond differently to a black OCer v a white OCer does not mean that it is racism. And doing such experimenting with long guns, IMO, is not the same as doing it with holstered pistol OC.
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
The article is interesting, but the experiment is more random than scientific. The premise is that race matters when exercising gun rights; i.e. police respect the gun rights of whites but not African Americans.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that minorities get treated differently when OC in some cases than do whites.

Neither would it surprise me to learn that women get treated differently than men.

Nor that young looking persons get treated differently than the obviously middle-aged or senior crowd.

I can imagine that those with visible tats or piercings or dressed more "creatively" get treated differently than do those dressed in conservative, business casual attire.

I suspect an ever larger difference takes place once an initial contact is made based on speech and response to the officer, with the well spoken and respectful being treated differently than the foul-mouthed or combative.

None of which is to say that minorities should be treated differently. Just recognizing some of what I think is human nature.

Charles
 

SouthernBoy

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Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Yes their is a difference / problem.

Id like to see how it would work out if the white guy and the black guy,,
dressed the same, carrying the same, walking, Together!!!

Well let's see. I've done this with a friend or two who happened to be black and we live in the South and there was no problem. Go figure.

This "test" is pretty much invalid. One would have to have performed it in the same location, with the same traffic patterns operating, and the same officer making the contact. And even then it would be questionable because the second test case would have tainted the officer's reactions. Therefore one cannot draw a valid scientific conclusion from these sample cases.
 
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Thundar

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Newport News, Virginia, USA
Bmwag

Yes their is a difference / problem.

Id like to see how it would work out if the white guy and the black guy,,
dressed the same, carrying the same, walking, Together!!!

Well actually we had such an incident a while back at the Waterside in Norfolk. It was one of the Danbus incidents.

I was actually thinking of the Norfolk BMWAG incidents when I started this thread.
 

1245A Defender

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north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

Well actually we had such an incident a while back at the Waterside in Norfolk. It was one of the Danbus incidents.

I was actually thinking of the Norfolk BMWAG incidents when I started this thread.

I do hate to do my own research,,, and I do remember that Danbus was a real trailblazer for the cause,,,
Sooo could you please hook me up with some links to any comparable incidents, news, law or threads?
 

Eeyore

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the meanest city in the stupidest state
Eyeore,

I was clear about the shortcomings of the article in my first posting. I do not ever read the drivel that comes after an article posted in a blog like Reverb.

What do you think about the premise of the article that race matters when one tries to exercise the right to keep and bear arms? This is a topic worthy of meaningful discussion.

Fixed it for you. Yes, this is a timely topic, given the recent attention to police discrimination/over-reaction/militarization.

I think white OCers are more aware of these problems than whites in general. This forum has plenty of examples of white OCers being treated in the way the black OCer was in the "article."
I think black OCers probably experience more hassles than white OCers, blacks in general, and certainly more than white non-OCers. Being a BMWAG is a double-whammy for them. Unfortunate, but true.
I think to some degree it's understandable why the police over-react (crime statistics, ineffective "justice system," siege mentality, poor screening, poor training, bad attitudes, militarization, etc.). It's a job I don't think I could do, certainly not well.
I also think it's wrong. I think society needs to demand a cultural change in the police forces--to stop protecting their "bad apples" no matter what, and transition back to a public safety mindset from the current emphasis on law enforcement.

In many ways, the the blacks vs police issue mirrors our constant debate over how to dress when OCing. How you look and act broadcasts how you see yourself and how you want others to react to you. You can't dress like a gang-banger, Hell's Angel, cowboy, or giant stuffed sports-team mascot and then be surprised or outraged when people treat you as one. It's not fair, but it's reality. I suspect a young black man in khakis and a polo shirt will get treated differently by nearly everybody (including police) than a young black man clomping around in a hoodie and untied hiking boots. Ditto for a young Hispanic or white man, for that matter. Some people see LACs as either troublemakers or--for some police--challenges to their authoritah who must be put in their place, and react accordingly. Dressing in baggy pants (danger! gang member!) or leather and studs (danger! Son of Anarchy! 12 dead in Waco!) or in head-to-toe camo (Danger! Wacko white-supremacist militia gun-nut!) just magnifies the effect for people pre-disposed to that reaction.
 
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nonameisgood

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In aggregate, police don't want people to have guns. With concealed weapons, the lack of apparent guns is a polite fiction. Once the weapon is observed, it's like Pavlov rang his bell. The degree to which the bell makes one figuratively salivate IS related to other factors of perceived risk. In the special case of the AR, people associate them with war and movie theaters - which triggers a more visceral response. Also, Chris Rock says it best, "there isn't a white guy in this audience who will change places with me, and I'm rich!" Police perceive that more crime is associated with minorities. The truth is unimportant in any single situation because while we know that all black men in saggy pants are not criminals, we incorrectly associate the three observable characteristics with criminals..

Rewind to the post-Civil War Era: Texas became the FIRST state to prohibit ALL carry of pistols in order to keep freedmen from carrying them. (That and we had a governor who refused to cede power to his elected successor.)

So now someone takes a one-example anecdote and draws broad conclusions. I think the story is bad journalism and while it makes a point about an "obvious" issue, it's kind of like citing a movie or novel as an example of what can happen IRL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

since9

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The article is interesting, but the experiment is more random than scientific. The premise is that race matters when exercising gun rights; i.e. police respect the gun rights of whites but not African Americans.

Link: http://reverbpress.com/justice/open-carry-experiment-exposes-more-racism-in-policing/

Do you think this experiment could be duplicated in a more scientific manner?

Yes, I most certainly think it could be duplicated in a more scientific manner. Sending two people -- one white and one black -- out on the streets to see what the cops will do, however, is hardly scientific, but is most certainly unnecessarily dangerous.

Tests for racism have been around for more than a century. I was exposed to one of the more common tests, a random collection of photographs of people randomly selected from the streets of a number of cities. From what I understand, more than 5,000 such photographs were taken, at random, and without the subject's knowledge. The subjects were approached only after the photograph was taken and background information gathered. Roughly half were women, and races accurately reflected the populations of the various races in the U.S. Each photograph was stripped of all identifying information except a randomized serial number. Meanwhile, the subjects' age, gender, and race, occupations, and current purpose and demeanor were added to the database.

The test has been given to many groups of randomly-selected individuals, including students, citizens, cops, employers, members of the military, city officials. The pictures were shown with only one question, usually a yes or no question like "Would you hire this individual?" and "Is this person a good person or a bad person?" Tests were completed in double-blind construct, so the testor never knew which test subject gave what answers. This was done to minimize testing bias.

Results: Most people are racially biased, regardless of whether they understand it, believe it, or not.
 

OC for ME

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What I saw were citizens being subjected to cops acting unlawfully, likely not held to account for threatening to use lethal force, in once incident, where it was not clearly justified. The "rest of the story" would/should be quite a read...if available.
 

Thundar

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1245A Defender, here is a start.

I do hate to do my own research,,, and I do remember that Danbus was a real trailblazer for the cause,,,
Sooo could you please hook me up with some links to any comparable incidents, news, law or threads?

Readers digest version:

Danbus, AKA BMWAG - Black man with a gun, was detained at gunpoint in Norfolk for open carrying in downtown Norfolk. He sued Norfolk and the city settled for $10,000 rather than go to trial. VCDL went to protest the treatment of Danbus at a Norfolk City Council meeting. After the meeting many VCDL members went to Hooters, which is at Waterside. While at Watrerside Danbus and a white VCDL member were stopped together by Norfolk PD and told erroniously that they were tresspassing. The two denied that they were actually tresspassing. White VCDL member released, BMWAG arrested. Danbus was later aquitted because Waterside is public property. In both instances Norfolk PDs reaction to open carry by a black citizen open carrying but breaking no law was different than the reaction to white open carriers.

Here are some links to start you off:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?45563-Norfolk-PD-OC-awareness&highlight=danbus

Post #19: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...O-GUNS-ALLOWED-at-Waterside&highlight=hooters
 

Ezek

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Jan 19, 2015
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Location
missouri
well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.

Still no crime other than looking like....without evidence it all should mean squat to the enFORCEr.
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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Fairfax Co., VA
...from reading that article and some of the comments below it. For example, I had no idea that:

  • NRA supports open carry
  • the GOP (I assume he's referring to the Republican party) supports open carry
  • the GOP is funded by the NRA
  • the NRA-funded GOP control the police
  • Texas is "ground zero" of the open carry movement
  • white OCers hate black people in general and black OCers in particular (Danbus, jahwarrior, the_hustleman, et al might be surprised to learn that, too.)
  • open carry activism is much more prevalent in the South

I now consider myself much better-informed for having read that balanced, thoroughly-reseached article and the ensuing logical, well-thought-out comments. [SIZE=+2]NOT.[/SIZE]

OMG!! Am I supposed to hate those guys! Jeezus! I knew Danbus was black, but only because I saw a video of him years ago. Or, maybe because he said so, I can no longer recall.

But, those other guys?!!?! They're black!?!!!

OMG!! I had no idea! Man! I've been falling down on the racist job! Hell, I'm not even sure I can qualify as a racist after such a failing: I didn't even pick up so much as an around-the-corner hint about their race, much less that it wasn't white.

(/sarcasm)
 
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