Government Nonsense; Waco Biker Gunfight

sudden valley gunner · May 21, 2015

Seems some would rather live with the tyranny of "safety" than the "tempestous sea of liberty".

sudden valley gunner · May 21, 2015

Interesting, apparently a Video shows the gun fire did not start inside.

Seems blue has been less than honest, again.

http://truthvoice.com/2015/05/biker...afety-in-security-video-from-waco-restaurant/

FUQ- The AP was shown the video Wednesday by representatives of the Twin Peaks franchise, who have said the fighting began outside the restaurant, not inside as police have said. The franchise has not released the video publicly, citing the ongoing investigation.

FUQ- Police have acknowledged firing on armed bikers, but it is not clear how many of the dead were shot by gang members and how many were shot by officers.

solus · May 21, 2015

sudden valley gunner said:
Seems some would rather live with the tyranny of "safety" than the "tempestous sea of liberty".

so it would seem...and the NM has the police agency(ies) from all over the state and neighbouring agencies converging into NM for the Red River rally this upcoming weekend...

should be quite interesting to see if calm prevails...

ipse

and SVG, your surprised with the reports from the nice LEs about what actually occured?

sudden valley gunner · May 21, 2015

solus said:
so it would seem...and the NM has the police agency(ies) from all over the state and neighbouring agencies converging into NM for the Red River rally this upcoming weekend...

should be quite interesting to see if calm prevails...

ipse

Ah yes, lets wait and see.

stealthyeliminator · May 22, 2015

utbagpiper said:
Hundreds of bikers from rival, criminal, violent gangs. A large fight amongst the bikers that escalates to shootings. Several dead and injured criminal gang members.

And the problem here is the cops engaging in some kind of grand conspiracy to provoke and then to set bails that way too high for the upstanding, peaceable bikers who don't pose a flight risk?

Somehow I'm think Occam's Razor is not computing on some conclusions being drawn.

Complete misrepresentation of my position and thoughts. Why am I not surprised?

WalkingWolf · May 22, 2015

stealthyeliminator said:
Complete (intentional) misrepresentation of my position and thoughts. Why am I not surprised?

Fixed it for you...

sudden valley gunner · May 23, 2015

So far there is no evidence that ] the dead were not killed by anyone other than cops.

Seems they had to make a retraction....

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015...laim-4-of-dead-had-no-texas-criminal-records/

solus · May 23, 2015

quite distrubing but as far as JQP is concerned, they have moved on to another sensational issue as yet to be reported, so they do not care the incident was misreported!!

George got it right in 1949 didn't he??

ipse

Dario · May 23, 2015

solus said:
quite distrubing but as far as JQP is concerned, they have moved on to another sensational issue as yet to be reported, so they do not care the incident was misreported!!

George got it right in 1949 didn't he??

ipse

Down the memory hole...

Then again we live in a world that Charles described back in 1859.

Fallschirjmäger · May 23, 2015

FBrinson said:
From article linked at the bottom of Skid's post: "8 bikers died at the scene and a 9th in hospital, another 18 bikers were hospitalized, no civilians were injured"

I wonder what definition of the word civilian they are using.

Non-government actor, non-motorcycle club, regular run of the mill people.
If you had a situation that included government actors, motorcycle club members and ... 'others', how would you best describe the 'others'?

Citizen · May 23, 2015

Fallschirmjäger said:
Non-government actor, non-motorcycle club, regular run of the mill people.
If you had a situation that included government actors, motorcycle club members and ... 'others', how would you best describe the 'others'?

They used to be called innocent bystander. Sometimes just bystander.

skidmark · May 23, 2015

stealthyeliminator said:
Initially I was not suspicious of the police in this incident at all.

However, their mass arrest response, completely unconstitutional and malicious charging and bond setting, and confidently stated remarks which are nearly immediately contradicted by evidence make me increasingly suspicious of them.

Just to pick a nit -

Last I heard cops do not set bond. The prosecutor may reccomend a bond amount or the magistrate may pull a number out of his hat without assistance.

Bond is supposed to act as an incentive for the accused to show up in court or otherwise obey the commands of the court. Given the supposed nature of the defendants (outlaw motorcyclists associated with all sorts of organized committing of crimes and an alleged propensity to pick up and change residency at whim) the bond level may be appropriate as opposed to unconstitutionally excessive.

However, as more and more facts, as opposed to hyperbole, emerge there is a good reason to consider that the bond amounts ought to be reduced. But that is a motion the defendant needs to initiate - either directly to the court or through their attorney. So far I'm not seeing any of the arrested moving in that direction.

stay safe.

sudden valley gunner · May 23, 2015

skidmark said:
Just to pick a nit -

Last I heard cops do not set bond. The prosecutor may reccomend a bond amount or the magistrate may pull a number out of his hat without assistance.

Bond is supposed to act as an incentive for the accused to show up in court or otherwise obey the commands of the court. Given the supposed nature of the defendants (outlaw motorcyclists associated with all sorts of organized committing of crimes and an alleged propensity to pick up and change residency at whim) the bond level may be appropriate as opposed to unconstitutionally excessive.

However, as more and more facts, as opposed to hyperbole, emerge there is a good reason to consider that the bond amounts ought to be reduced. But that is a motion the defendant needs to initiate - either directly to the court or through their attorney. So far I'm not seeing any of the arrested moving in that direction.

stay safe.

Evidence showing that most grabbed were not criminals.

Outlaw motorcyclist is a term from AMA, clubs not recognized by them are "outlaw". Stemming from the event Nightmare links too. The misuse of this by cops, prosecutors and those who tend to side with them first is done to paint motorcycle dishonestly in a certain manner.

Looking at the links and more info coming out. Bail was used in this light to punish those the state don't like, seems to be a punishment without due process. Very unreasonable. Some members if you actually read the links that are not state approved have lost their jobs over what the cops have done.

WalkingWolf · May 23, 2015

sudden valley gunner said:
Evidence showing that most grabbed were not criminals.

Outlaw motorcyclist is a term from AMA, clubs not recognized by them are "outlaw". Stemming from the event Nightmare links too. The misuse of this by cops, prosecutors and those who tend to side with them first is done to paint motorcycle dishonestly in a certain manner.

Looking at the links and more info coming out. Bail was used in this light to punish those the state don't like, seems to be a punishment without due process. Very unreasonable. Some members if you actually read the links that are not state approved have lost their jobs over what the cops have done.

Motorcycle clubs have their name, and logo trademarked, they have a charter, and rules, elections. Like any other group some commit crimes, I can think of other groups that this is so. I am friends with a HA member, I used to run around with a Scorpion treasurer. Have rode with Outlaws, Ghost Riders, and a few others. HA have doctors, lawyers, other professionals in their ranks, and yes they have police officers who are members. I know of two NYPD officers who I met at a bike rally.

Personally I have had only one with problem with a patch holder. A Outlaw prospect who showed up at a house that was hosting HA, and friends, I was one of those friends. When he learned I was a LEO he tried to pick a fight. We were invited to the Outlaws club to get an apology by the prospect, to myself, and several HA members. And these clubs have a long history, times have changed a lot with MC, most guys now in it are not the monsters the FEDS paint. They party hard, get loud, curse, about like any group of males that get together.

At one time I was also a member of a unchartered club, because they were not political. AFAIK the club is no longer around. The only other membership I held was ABATE.

twoskinsonemanns · May 23, 2015

skidmark said:
Bond is supposed to act as an incentive for the accused to show up in court or otherwise obey the commands of the court. Given the supposed nature of the defendants (outlaw motorcyclists associated with all sorts of organized committing of crimes and an alleged propensity to pick up and change residency at whim) the bond level may be appropriate as opposed to unconstitutionally excessive.

I suppose no bail is excessive if you have enough faith in your masters to be just. After all usually anyone captured by the state probably deserves it.
Your faith is appreciable.

KBCraig · May 23, 2015

skidmark said:
Just to pick a nit -

Last I heard cops do not set bond. The prosecutor may reccomend a bond amount or the magistrate may pull a number out of his hat without assistance.

Last I heard, this happened in Texas, and the news reported that "McLennan County Justice of the Peace W.H. Peterson set the bond Monday for each suspect and described the amount as "appropriate" given the level of violence that occurred a day earlier at a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco."

What's a Justice of the Peace in Texas? It's an elected member of the Quorum Court (the county board, in other states), serving as the legislative counter to the County Judge chief executive. They oversee county road crews in their precincts, can pronounce deaths and perform marriages. They can act as magistrates on misdemeanor cases where the only penalty is a fine, not jail time.

So, just to pick a nit -

We're dealing with a specific case in a state whose laws differ from your own.

Citizen · May 23, 2015

KBCraig said:
Last I heard, this happened in Texas, and the news reported that "McLennan County Justice of the Peace W.H. Peterson set the bond Monday for each suspect and described the amount as "appropriate" given the level of violence that occurred a day earlier at a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco."

What's a Justice of the Peace in Texas? It's an elected member of the Quorum Court (the county board, in other states), serving as the legislative counter to the County Judge chief executive. They oversee county road crews in their precincts, can pronounce deaths and perform marriages. They can act as magistrates on misdemeanor cases where the only penalty is a fine, not jail time.

So, just to pick a nit -

We're dealing with a specific case in a state whose laws differ from your own.

Well, I think he's both stuck his foot in his mouth, and violated the right against excessive bail.

By his own statement, he's setting bond based, not on the exact, specific probable cause against that individual, but some generalized harm that occurred irrespective of the individual's participation in that harm and the prosecution's ability to demonstrate that individualized harm. Blanket generalization. Each and every one of the accused participated and caused the same amount of harm. Suuuuure they did.

sudden valley gunner · May 24, 2015

WalkingWolf said:
Motorcycle clubs have their name, and logo trademarked, they have a charter, and rules, elections. Like any other group some commit crimes, I can think of other groups that this is so. I am friends with a HA member, I used to run around with a Scorpion treasurer. Have rode with Outlaws, Ghost Riders, and a few others. HA have doctors, lawyers, other professionals in their ranks, and yes they have police officers who are members. I know of two NYPD officers who I met at a bike rally.

Personally I have had only one with problem with a patch holder. A Outlaw prospect who showed up at a house that was hosting HA, and friends, I was one of those friends. When he learned I was a LEO he tried to pick a fight. We were invited to the Outlaws club to get an apology by the prospect, to myself, and several HA members. And these clubs have a long history, times have changed a lot with MC, most guys now in it are not the monsters the FEDS paint. They party hard, get loud, curse, about like any group of males that get together.

At one time I was also a member of a unchartered club, because they were not political. AFAIK the club is no longer around. The only other membership I held was ABATE.

Doesn't surprise me about the prosepect.

Wannabe's are always the most dangerous.

Here in Bellingham the local cops and sheriff working with the feds made a big deal about kicking the Bandidos out of town. Murder went up exponentially the next year. Clubs have a vested interest in keeping things mellow.

I have friends who have a club. They are way more well behaved than the street gang that wears blue.

sudden valley gunner · May 24, 2015

twoskinsonemanns said:
I suppose no bail is excessive if you have enough faith in your masters to be just. After all usually anyone captured by the state probably deserves it.
Your faith is appreciable.

He seems to be assuming it is appropriate to do wide prejudiced sweeps and condemn everyone with jail time and excessive bail. Innocence until proven guilty be damned.

HPmatt · May 24, 2015

Ok - got my tinfoil hat on - Right before Texas OC goes into effect, C4 blows up Texas capital, Broken Spoke and Scholtz Beer Garden. Martial Law declared, POTUS instructs Operation Jade Helm troops to govern Texas., invite 50 million Mexicans and Syrians to 'move home'....

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