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Thread: Some see differences between perceptions of Waco, Baltimore

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    Some see differences between perceptions of Waco, Baltimore

    "The prevailing images of protests in Baltimore and Ferguson, Missouri, over police killings of black men were of police in riot gear, handcuffed protesters, tear gas and mass arrests. The main images of a fatal gun battle between armed bikers and police in Waco, Texas, also showed mass arrests — carried out by nonchalant-looking officers sitting around calm bikers on cell phones.
    [ ... ]
    ... Police have acknowledged firing on armed bikers, but it was unclear how many of the dead were shot by gang members and how many were shot by officers."

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ns-of-waco-ba/

    Wisconsin Sheriff: ‘It Is a Myth That Police Kill Black Males in Greater Numbers Than Anyone Else’

    "Clarke referenced “the police use of force data,” compiled by Richard Johnson, PhD and titled, “Examining the Prevalence of Deaths from Police Use of Force,” which shows that between 2009 and 2012, the majority of those who died at the hands of police were white males.

    Specifically, 61 percent or 915 of 1,491 people who died from police use of force were white males, while 32 percent or 481 were black males, Clarke noted."

    http://www.votersopinion.com/wp-cont...e-of-Force.pdf

    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...numbers-anyone
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-20-2015 at 06:58 AM.
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    White bikers, black thugs: Why Texas looked to relax gun laws after biker shootout

    While the rest of America tried to make sense Monday of the weekend shootout at the Waco Twin Peaks -- and learned of a whole biker subculture featuring sometimes-violent turf wars -- the Texas legislature debated a bill that would expand the rights of licensed gun owners to openly carry weapons in public.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...politics_pop_b
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    From a mathematical standpoint the numbers or well the way they are presented is slanted... 32 percent were black... Yet blacks are what 10% of the population?

    I am not saying that the shootings were not justified... But learn to see through biases and what agenda the presenter is trying to support.

    Take for instance welfare.... Many black community leaders throw out numbers claiming more whites are on welfare and the ignore the fact that blacks are over represented in the welfare recipient percentage vs population percentage....

    People twist things to meet their goals/viewpoint.

    The original article fails to acknowledge that the reason that the roots get more attention is cause the are on going events. Not over in a matter of minutes. They also talk about labeling the rioters as thugs and how that is bad... What? They are... They then say why are white protesters/people not thugs?... Umm cause no one was protesting the bikers getting killed and more importantly white people (and the majority of black people) accept that the people killed are not choir boys in all these cases. That more than likely the police are/were justified. And no one shows up to protest the death of criminals... That likely got what they deserved.... Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

    The media makes money off of strife... "if it bleeds it leads".... And of course inciting racial tensions gets air time cause it self generates news.

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    The comparison of people sitting around right after the event... To riots taking place days if not weeks later is also laughable.... I guarantee that when Michael Brown was killed people sat around also as the police investigated and processed the scene.

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    Stories 1 & 3, if you don't understand the differences and/or you didn't know that biker gangs, like all gangs, have turf wars well, you are a moron.

    Story 2, yes, facts are stubborn things.

    Stories 1-3, it is primarily the liberal ivory tower talking heads, MSM and MTP guests who are surprised by such things.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStack View Post
    From a mathematical standpoint the numbers or well the way they are presented is slanted... 32 percent were black... Yet blacks are what 10% of the population?
    I had a similar question when I read the OP: The issue wouldn't seem to be the percentage of whites vs blacks killed, but what is the percentage of blacks out of the total population compared to the percentage of blacks in all police killings? I didn't know the 10% figure you used, so I couldn't really say whether blacks are disproportionately killed.

    Plus, I'd be suspicious anyway just based on the huge statistical over-representation of black males in the prison system. Just that alone makes one strongly suspect blacks are coming into investigative contact with police at a much higher rate than whites. If that is the case, it only makes sense that blacks are more likely to be killed by police than whites.

    I just realized something else. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the percentage of white males who do not survive investigative contact with police to the percentage of black males who do not survive investigative contact with police? For example, if 1% of all police investigative contacts on white males resulted in a police killing, but 3% of all investigative contacts on black males resulted in a police killing, then we would have a problem. From a statistical standpoint, anyway (I already suspect blacks are victimized by police way out of proportion to whites.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    US AA population 13.2% 2014 Census bureau.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    US AA population 13.2% 2014 Census bureau.
    Whoa!! Are you saying (passing along) that 13.2% of the population are black?

    If that's what you're relating, then lets assume half of the blacks are male, half are female.

    This would then mean, using the statistics quoted by the source in the OP, that black males comprise 6.51% of the population, yet are killed by police 32% of the time of all police killings.

    Jeezus!!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Whoa!! Are you saying (passing along) that 13.2% of the population are black?

    If that's what you're relating, then lets assume half of the blacks are male, half are female.

    This would then mean, using the statistics quoted by the source in the OP, that black males comprise 6.51% of the population, yet are killed by police 32% of the time of all police killings.

    Jeezus!!!
    Twelfth line down, if it's presented the same as in my browser. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Whoa!! Are you saying (passing along) that 13.2% of the population are black?

    If that's what you're relating, then lets assume half of the blacks are male, half are female.

    This would then mean, using the statistics quoted by the source in the OP, that black males comprise 6.51% of the population, yet are killed by police 32% of the time of all police killings.
    It is rather distressing that men are so grossly over-represented in the death toll. Some stats gathered by Richard Johnson, Pd.D. and presented to the Criminal Justice Program at the University of Toledo, and passed along to me:

    Of the 1,491 persons that died from police use of force from 2009-2012:
    915 (61.4%) were white males
    481 (32.2%) were black males
    48 (3.2%) were males of other races
    28 (1.9%) were white females
    15 (1.1%) were black females
    4 (0.2%) were females of other races

    Why is it that with nearly 50% of the population being female, they suffer only 3.2% of all deaths at the hands of the police, while men represent 96.8% of all such deaths?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Twelfth line down, if it's presented the same as in my browser. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
    Thanks.

    OMG!!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Pd.D Doctor of Pedagogy

    Richard Johnson at U. Toledo holds a Ph.D in Criminal Justice
    Last edited by Nightmare; 05-20-2015 at 05:11 PM.
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    Here is some data/stats from a presentation that was presumable put together by Richard Johnson, Pd.D., Criminal Justice Program, University of Toledo. The powerpoint from which I'm pulling these bullet points was given to me by a Utah peace officer. The data does not directly address the question of whether a black man is more or less likely than a white man to get shot, all else being equal. In total (which I won't take time to post), it is clearly being written from a pro-police perspective as it attempts to demonstrate that police officers killing suspects is rare.

    With that disclaimer and presented for information:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Johnson PowerPoint excerpts
    The data for this analysis came from the 2009-2012 Uniform Crime Reportís Supplemental Homicide Reports published annually by the federal government.

    During this 4-year period, a total of 56,259 homicide victims were reported in the U.S.

    Of the 56,259 homicides from 2009-2012, 1,491 were the result of police use of force.

    This suggests yearly averages of:
    372 persons killed each year by police use of force (about the same as killed by lightening strikes)

    Of the 56,259 homicides from 2009-2012, 19,000 (33.8%) were killings of black males.

    Comparisons by types of homicides of black males:
    481 (2.5%) were the result of police use of force
    152 (0.8%) were the result of a negligent accident homicides (i.e., child playing with a gun)
    648 (3.4%) were the result of a justifiable homicides by private citizens acting in self-defense
    17,719 (93.3%) were criminal homicides (murders)
    Private citizens killed a quarter more black males in justifiable homicides than did police use of force

    While only 6% of the U.S. population is identified as black and male, 57.9% of the persons legally killed by a private citizen in self-defense were black males.

    However, 73.1% of the black males legally killed by a citizen in self-defense between 2009-2012 were killed by a black citizen.

    Heartbreakingly, due to a variety of societal factors, black males are disproportionately involved in violent crime, especially against black citizens.

    42.6% of victims of all solved criminal homicides from 2009-2012 were black males

    89.6% of black males killed in criminal homicides from 2009-2012 were killed by another black male

    40.6% of the police officers murdered in the line of duty from 2009-2012 were killed by black males*

    In spite of these statistics, only 32.2% of the deaths from police use of force from 2009-2012 involved black males

    These data suggest yearly averages of:
    120 black males are killed each year by police use of force

    Compare this to the following averages:
    38 black males are killed each year in negligent accidents
    162 black males are killed each year in justifiable homicides by citizens acting in self-defense
    4,166 black males are killed each year in criminal homicides (murders & manslaughters)

    Black males in the U.S. are killed just as frequently by (mostly black) private citizens acting in self-defense as they are killed by police use of force.

    According to national statistics gathered by the FBI, from 2009-2012 a total of 58,207 police officers sustained injuries from assaults and another 224 police officers were murdered in the line of duty.*

    These figures suggest an annual average of 14,552 officers injured, and 56 officers killed each year in assaults while on duty.

    Not all of the injuries sustained by police officers in these assaults may meet the legal definition of serious bodily injury, but many of them do.

    Furthermore, as lethal force may legally be used when there is simply the threat of imminent serious bodily injury without any injury actually resulting (such as pointing a loaded gun at a police officer), the figures on officers injured and killed are a very conservative estimate of circumstances permitting the legitimate use of lethal force.

    So, while it can be estimated that police officers sustain bodily injuries or death from assaults in approximately 14,600 incidents a year, in response only an average of 372 persons die each year as a result of police use of force.
    My posting of the above should imply my necessary agreement with any of the non-factual statements contained therein.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    If only 5% of the town's population drives a sports car but sports car drivers receive 50% of the speeding tickets issued, it cannot be concluded based on this demographic that sports car owners are being unfairly targeted by or discriminated against by traffic cops.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    If only 5% of the town's population drives a sports car but sports car drivers receive 50% of the speeding tickets issued, it cannot be concluded based on this demographic that sports car owners are being unfairly targeted by or discriminated against by traffic cops.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    If only 5% of the town's population drives a sports car but sports car drivers receive 50% of the speeding tickets issued, it cannot be concluded based on this demographic that sports car owners are being unfairly targeted by or discriminated against by traffic cops.
    I get your point. I agree partly.

    Just because I cannot conclusively conclude to the exclusion of all other possibilities does not mean I can't jack my eyebrows to the ceiling.

    On the other hand, the statistics cited by the cop in the OP are so off-base, that he would even try it practically convicts him of a deliberate misdirection.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    If only 5% of the town's population drives a sports car but sports car drivers receive 50% of the speeding tickets issued, it cannot be concluded based on this demographic that sports car owners are being unfairly targeted by or discriminated against by traffic cops.
    Ah I see what you are saying.

    I was trying to make your analogy stick to a humans melanin level.

    Culturally this is a good point, yet at some point the statistics at the exaggerated rate would show that some would be unfairly targeted. Unless we were to assume that a majority of sports car owners were breaking the law.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I get your point. I agree partly.

    Just because I cannot conclusively conclude to the exclusion of all other possibilities does not mean I can't jack my eyebrows to the ceiling.

    On the other hand, the statistics cited by the cop in the OP are so off-base, that he would even try it practically convicts him of a deliberate misdirection.
    I in no way suggest that the reality of the statistics is anything but shocking, alarming and sickening. But blaming race for all or most of it misses the mark be miles IMO.

    I don't think any of it has anything to do with skin color. I think it is entirely cultural. And we have a government wealth redistribution system that not only allows dysfunctional cultures to survive, but to actually flourish and perpetuate. To blame so much on race and demographics is to ignore the destruction wrought on our nation, and disproportionally on black communities, by the social welfare state. Race is often a cop out for a culture of self-destruction dressed up in historical grievance mongering and moral equivalency. We similarly see self-destructive culture in welfare dependent white, Hispanic and other demographic communities. The common thread is not melanin but gov't dependence and continued voting for the same party that created, protects and ever attempts to expand the very welfare state enslaving them.

    None of that is to say that there is not racism (which is not exclusive to whites by any mean) or racial disparities and it should be appropriately punished if found in the judicial or other gov't systems. But I find the race card generally over played and over drawn. I'm a complete proponent of focus on content of character instead of color of skin. But to do that demographic realities cannot be ignored and it is a disservice to the entirety of the black community to accept bad analysis based on demographics instead of behavior.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I in no way suggest that the reality of the statistics is anything but shocking, alarming and sickening. But blaming race for all or most of it misses the mark be miles IMO.

    I don't think any of it has anything to do with skin color. I think it is entirely cultural. And we have a government wealth redistribution system that not only allows dysfunctional cultures to survive, but to actually flourish and perpetuate. To blame so much on race and demographics is to ignore the destruction wrought on our nation, and disproportionally on black communities, by the social welfare state. Race is often a cop out for a culture of self-destruction dressed up in historical grievance mongering and moral equivalency. We similarly see self-destructive culture in welfare dependent white, Hispanic and other demographic communities. The common thread is not melanin but gov't dependence and continued voting for the same party that created, protects and ever attempts to expand the very welfare state enslaving them.

    None of that is to say that there is not racism (which is not exclusive to whites by any mean) or racial disparities and it should be appropriately punished if found in the judicial or other gov't systems. But I find the race card generally over played and over drawn. I'm a complete proponent of focus on content of character instead of color of skin. But to do that demographic realities cannot be ignored and it is a disservice to the entirety of the black community to accept bad analysis based on demographics instead of behavior.
    Makes a lot of sense.

    If I read you correctly, you're saying it wouldn't matter which skin color the minorities possessed. Whichever group, (heck, even if all white), if they were economically disadvantaged, dependent, etc., they would be the ones getting shot more. Today its blacks. In 1850 it was Irish and Italians. Correct?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    In STL, a protester wiped pepper spray residue (on his hands after wiping his own eyes) onto the shirt sleeve of the STLPD Chief of Police, Chief Sam "Anti-liberty" Dotson...the protester will be charged with assault.

    YMMV
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I in no way suggest that the reality of the statistics is anything but shocking, alarming and sickening. But blaming race for all or most of it misses the mark be miles IMO.

    I don't think any of it has anything to do with skin color. I think it is entirely cultural. And we have a government wealth redistribution system that not only allows dysfunctional cultures to survive, but to actually flourish and perpetuate. To blame so much on race and demographics is to ignore the destruction wrought on our nation, and disproportionally on black communities, by the social welfare state. Race is often a cop out for a culture of self-destruction dressed up in historical grievance mongering and moral equivalency. We similarly see self-destructive culture in welfare dependent white, Hispanic and other demographic communities. The common thread is not melanin but gov't dependence and continued voting for the same party that created, protects and ever attempts to expand the very welfare state enslaving them.

    None of that is to say that there is not racism (which is not exclusive to whites by any mean) or racial disparities and it should be appropriately punished if found in the judicial or other gov't systems. But I find the race card generally over played and over drawn. I'm a complete proponent of focus on content of character instead of color of skin. But to do that demographic realities cannot be ignored and it is a disservice to the entirety of the black community to accept bad analysis based on demographics instead of behavior.

    Great points. Thank you for the elaboration.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Makes a lot of sense.

    If I read you correctly, you're saying it wouldn't matter which skin color the minorities possessed. Whichever group, (heck, even if all white), if they were economically disadvantaged, dependent, etc., they would be the ones getting shot more. Today its blacks. In 1850 it was Irish and Italians. Correct?
    Not just shot, but the ones more likely to commit acts that lead to contact with LEO that then may escalate to hand on which then may escalate to deadly force and finally either jail, prison or a pine box.

    On top of that is the fact that poorer areas tend to have more crime which means there are more LEO patrols because we tend to send police to where the crime is happening which means there are more police around to see even misdemeanor acts which means that people spending a majority of time in a high crime area are more likely to have LEO contact, even for minor acts, because there is a higher ratio of LEO to residents in the area because of crime rate NOT because of the race of the people hanging out in the area.

    Similarly, people in a low crime often less accessible area tend to have fewer patrols within the community but more on the periphery so residents there are less likely to be observed by LEO committing misdemeanor acts that don't rise to the level of a fellow resident bothering to call LEO. So, little Johnny Suburb smokes a blunt on his parents' back patio in wooded suburb USA, and probably nobody notices or if they do, they only call Johnny's momma to tell on him. Or maybe Johnny Suburb is stupid and is smoking it in local suburb park. Johnny Law comes along and Suburb is all like, "My mom is going to KILL me!" and he stays seated, hangs his head and he and his friends have a nice chat with LEO, take their municipal ticket for possession and go home.

    In contrast, Jamal Urban smokes a blunt on his momma's front steps in high crime urban USA and Johnny Suburb's brother-in-law, Johnny Law, comes rolling by and see Jamal Urban because not only does Johnny Urban not have a tree line hidden back patio, he doesn't even have a nearby park that is safe after dark for even locals and although cops are always driving by, he didn't see this one coming. As Johnny Law stops the car, Jamal Urban takes off running because he is scared and has spent his life listening to Gangsta Rap and thinks that is what he is supposed to do. Johnny Law calls for backup and ten adrenaline dumping minutes later Jamal Urban is face down in the filth of a vacant lot while 5 white cops dog pile him figuring this kid must be dangerous and have something on him or done something really wrong to have run away from a stupid little municipal ticket in that manner. Jamal Urban gets his municipal ticket - he also gets fleeing, resisting arrest, assault on a police officer and 4 or 5 other stacked up charges and now, having turned 18 last week, has a police record which will effect his opportunities for the rest of his life.

    Absolute disparity between those and that disparity has absolutely nothing to do with race as far as the actual LEO encounter.

    Add to all that the factor that poor blacks tend to live in urban areas where it is easy to focus LEO patrolling and poor whites seem (I say seem because I am relying on anecdotal and regional data for this rather than a national data point) to more often live in rural areas where concentrating LEOs is not only difficult, but where hiding misdemeanor activities, such as smoking weed, is easier because there is a back porch or a treeline to go hide in where cops won't see the activity just rolling by, and you can account for huge portions of the disparities, again, without one single LEO being racially biased in any way (and as I said, I'm not discounting the existence of such bias just arguing that it is not as significant in crime disparities as other factors).
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I in no way suggest that the reality of the statistics is anything but shocking, alarming and sickening. But blaming race for all or most of it misses the mark be miles IMO.

    I don't think any of it has anything to do with skin color. I think it is entirely cultural. And we have a government wealth redistribution system that not only allows dysfunctional cultures to survive, but to actually flourish and perpetuate. To blame so much on race and demographics is to ignore the destruction wrought on our nation, and disproportionally on black communities, by the social welfare state. Race is often a cop out for a culture of self-destruction dressed up in historical grievance mongering and moral equivalency. We similarly see self-destructive culture in welfare dependent white, Hispanic and other demographic communities. The common thread is not melanin but gov't dependence and continued voting for the same party that created, protects and ever attempts to expand the very welfare state enslaving them.

    None of that is to say that there is not racism (which is not exclusive to whites by any mean) or racial disparities and it should be appropriately punished if found in the judicial or other gov't systems. But I find the race card generally over played and over drawn. I'm a complete proponent of focus on content of character instead of color of skin. But to do that demographic realities cannot be ignored and it is a disservice to the entirety of the black community to accept bad analysis based on demographics instead of behavior.
    I agree.
    A better way to look at it would be to look at the economic standing of the person's killed by police. Then in those groupings and comparing that to the overall percentage of the race in that same economic grouping... Then maybe you get a better picture of the amount of racism or lack thereof.

    There are a ton of factors that contribute to the downfall of any group/society/community of people.

    How many killed grew up in I r were currently on welfare?

    How many grew up in single parent families?

    How many had attained certain levels of education?

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