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Thread: Not completely OC related, but...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Not completely OC related, but...

    http://photographyisnotacrime.com/20...ed-up-charges/

    Basically, a guy stepped out of his apartment, noticed police arresting someone and started filming using his phone. The police ordered him to disperse (from his own home no less) and when he attempted to comply with the order -- but didn't stop filming -- he was arrested for disobeying.

    During the arrest, a deputy pointed a TASER at him. During the trial, the deputy testified under oath that he only aimed the TASER at the man because it had a flashlight on it and he needed the light.

    So what I'm wondering is, is it the official position of the KCSO that pointing a dangerous weapon at someone does not warrant alarm providing it has a flashlight attached?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Your question should be addressed to the KCSO. Ask them for a copy of their use of force policy.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    A telling phrase from your link, "You didn’t walk away fast enough,” the deputy says. “Now get down on your knees.”
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  4. #4
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Another Isolated Incident.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  5. #5
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    How can the cops concentrate on catching bad guys if they have to worry about their actions being documented and plastered all over youtube?
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    I have met this guy, the one who was arrested.

    He is a Open Carry supporter and he posts on this site from time to time also.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

  7. #7
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Your question should be addressed to the KCSO. Ask them for a copy of their use of force policy.stay safe.
    Why would their "policy" matter? Does that trump, the law? Are they more equal?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    How can the cops concentrate on catching bad guys if they have to worry about their actions being documented and plastered all over youtube?
    Yep and some wonder why those of us who have experienced these unlawful acts by cops, who were all willing to go to trial and F'ing lie along with the prosecutor. Are also willing to take some smack talk from apologist and talk back to these thugs.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    http://photographyisnotacrime.com/20...ed-up-charges/

    Basically, a guy stepped out of his apartment, noticed police arresting someone and started filming using his phone. The police ordered him to disperse (from his own home no less) and when he attempted to comply with the order -- but didn't stop filming -- he was arrested for disobeying.

    During the arrest, a deputy pointed a TASER at him. During the trial, the deputy testified under oath that he only aimed the TASER at the man because it had a flashlight on it and he needed the light.

    So what I'm wondering is, is it the official position of the KCSO that pointing a dangerous weapon at someone does not warrant alarm providing it has a flashlight attached?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why would their "policy" matter? Does that trump, the law? Are they more equal?
    I guess it really does need explaining.

    If the policy does not allow it then the individual cop is in the wrong and the KCSO ought to take corrective action. If the policy allows it both the KCSO and the individual cop may be in the wrong.

    I don't know about Washington State (and am not too eager to learn) but many other jurisdictions "allow" (heck, encourage) behavior that would be the illegal act of brandishing/pointing/threatening if a non-LEO did it, and the courts have repeatedly upheld the law, the regulation, and the policy that makes that so. But somehow case law is not "law law", is it?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I guess it really does need explaining.

    If the policy does not allow it then the individual cop is in the wrong and the KCSO ought to take corrective action. If the policy allows it both the KCSO and the individual cop may be in the wrong.

    I don't know about Washington State (and am not too eager to learn) but many other jurisdictions "allow" (heck, encourage) behavior that would be the illegal act of brandishing/pointing/threatening if a non-LEO did it, and the courts have repeatedly upheld the law, the regulation, and the policy that makes that so. But somehow case law is not "law law", is it?

    stay safe.
    Well I don't give a rats ass about their "policy".

    Both are still in wrong because no other cops including the department correct the problem whether its the individual or the whole departments policy.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
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    "Policy" is not different than the Nuremberg Defense. "Befehl ist Befehl"
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "Policy" is not different than the Nuremberg Defense. "Befehl ist Befehl"
    +1 Well said.

    I have heard cops tell me " I don't care what the law says, its their policy" . I even ended up being illegally searched and detained after those words.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    File criminal charges against the cop(s). When they get ignored, file charges against the prosecutor/cops for conspiracy. When that tactic fails, file suit and include the failure to prosecute the criminal violations. there does seem to be a history with that particular LEA.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    My mind is boggled by the rate of law enforcement interaction suffered and confessed here on OCDO.

    The most recent time that I have had to speak to a cop in his line of duty was in 1977 when I got a speeding ticket in Lake City, SC in my 911 Porsche (justified by previous offenses, but not righteous at that moment).
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    My mind is boggled by the rate of law enforcement interaction suffered and confessed here on OCDO.

    The most recent time that I have had to speak to a cop in his line of duty was in 1977 when I got a speeding ticket in Lake City, SC in my 911 Porsche (justified by previous offenses, but not righteous at that moment).
    It is rare to see sharks when you surf. Yet when you surf everyday it happens quite a bit.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    My mind is boggled by the rate of law enforcement interaction suffered and confessed here on OCDO.

    The most recent time that I have had to speak to a cop in his line of duty was in 1977 when I got a speeding ticket in Lake City, SC in my 911 Porsche (justified by previous offenses, but not righteous at that moment).
    You're also in Wisconsin. I doubt the Eau Claire PD has been monitored and chastised by the DOJ for abusive behaviors and tactics.

  17. #17
    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    Can he file a civil suit now?
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Well I don't give a rats ass about their "policy".

    Both are still in wrong because no other cops including the department correct the problem whether its the individual or the whole departments policy.
    You better start giving that rat's ass about the policy. It's what will form the basis of the defense/prosecution of the cop. Why would anybody want/need to "correct" anything if it's being done within policy? They (generic - we don't yet know about KCSO) apparently like the policy because they wrote and implemented it. It is up to someone (usually from the outside but not always) to convince them the policy is not achieving what they were hoping to achieve.

    You want to live in a world of concrete absolutes. It must be hell for you to every day find out the world is not like that.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    "Policy" is not different than the Nuremberg Defense. "Befehl ist Befehl"
    Sorry, but that was only used in an attempt to justify following orders that were patently illegal because they supported the commission of crimes against humanity.

    Your statement sounds more like something the Mommies Against Whatever would use than a rationally arrived at conclusion.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You better start giving that rat's ass about the policy. It's what will form the basis of the defense/prosecution of the cop. Why would anybody want/need to "correct" anything if it's being done within policy? They (generic - we don't yet know about KCSO) apparently like the policy because they wrote and implemented it. It is up to someone (usually from the outside but not always) to convince them the policy is not achieving what they were hoping to achieve.

    You want to live in a world of concrete absolutes. It must be hell for you to every day find out the world is not like that.

    stay safe.
    Oh I see, so ignorance of the law is no excuse (misused to mean positive law already) , but now ignorance of policy is no excuse.

    They would want/need to correct it to remain lawful......unless that isn't good enough.

    Hahaha me a world of absolutes.....laughable.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 05-28-2015 at 09:16 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sorry, but that was only used in an attempt to justify following orders that were patently illegal because they supported the commission of crimes against humanity.

    Your statement sounds more like something the Mommies Against Whatever would use than a rationally arrived at conclusion.

    stay safe.
    They were not, those orders, illegal in Germany, other countries, yes very likely. So, the orders followed only in Germany were made illegal by the new regime...sound familiar?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sorry, but that was only used in an attempt to justify following orders that were patently illegal because they supported the commission of crimes against humanity.

    Your statement sounds more like something the Mommies Against Whatever would use than a rationally arrived at conclusion.

    stay safe.
    didn't work for calley either...

    ipse
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    File criminal charges against the cop(s). When they get ignored, file charges against the prosecutor/cops for conspiracy. When that tactic fails, file suit and include the failure to prosecute the criminal violations. there does seem to be a history with that particular LEA.
    Prosecutors have absolute civil immunity. The court clerk wouldn't let you file and if you somehow managed to get it into the docket anyway, the judge would instantly dismiss with prejudice. Mind you, that if you attempted to enact a statute that gave someone (prosecutor or not) that immunity it would get struck down as unconstitutional, but since it's a court doctrine it somehow is above the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sorry, but that was only used in an attempt to justify following orders that were patently illegal because they supported the commission of crimes against humanity.
    And where in the body of laws with competent jurisdiction, in force at the time the acts were committed, would you find any statute that made it illegal to do those things?

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    They were not, those orders, illegal in Germany, other countries, yes very likely. So, the orders followed only in Germany were made illegal by the new regime...sound familiar?
    Very true. It was not illegal where and when the crimes against humanity were committed to commit those acts. The new regime making them retroactively illegal is what is known as an ex post facto law, something the US Constitution absolutely prohibits. Not that that prohibition or the one against bills of attainder have stopped the US government from doing either one mind you, but it IS still illegal.
    Last edited by Difdi; 06-02-2015 at 08:31 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    just finished a tome which stated, in part, the nice LEs are afraid of being reported to internal affairs for violating organizational policies, not the law, as even if cleared, apparently the entire episode is extremely unsettling with lie detectors, sworn affidavits, and such.

    even the threat apparently is a deterrent!!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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