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Thread: Permitless non-resident carry

  1. #1
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    Permitless non-resident carry

    My family is renting a vacation home for a family reunion in PA.

    I do not have a CHP in my home state of VA, and do not intend to get a PA non-resident permit for this weekend. I understand that I will not be able to carry in a vehicle in PA without a permit.

    Am I correct in my understanding that I can:
    1. Transport a firearm from VA to a rental home in PA unloaded and secured in the trunk
    2. Conceal or Open carry in the rental home without a permit
    3. Open carry elsewhere (except Philadelphia) without a permit

    Other than your basic federal 1,000 ft of a school, federal building restrictions, is there anything else I need to look out for as a non-resident open carrying in PA?

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    That pretty much covers the basics.

    Enjoy your trip - 'tis the season.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Once you leave your rental property, you may only open carry your loaded handgun when traveling BY FOOT, no vehicle carry or transporting of a loaded or unloaded handgun except to a very short list of exceptions, range, gunsmith, etc, and directly back again.

    You may not unload the handgun, toss it in the trunk, travel to your destination, and then begin to open carry upon your arrival just for the purpose of open carrying. That activity will get you charged with, at the least, a 1st degree misdemeanor, which upon conviction will render you a prohibited person federally (all 50 states)

    When it comes to vehicles, PA is not VA, unfortunately.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Once you leave your rental property, you may only open carry your loaded handgun when traveling BY FOOT, no vehicle carry or transporting of a loaded or unloaded handgun except to a very short list of exceptions, range, gunsmith, etc, and directly back again.

    You may not unload the handgun, toss it in the trunk, travel to your destination, and then begin to open carry upon your arrival just for the purpose of open carrying. That activity will get you charged with, at the least, a 1st degree misdemeanor, which upon conviction will render you a prohibited person federally (all 50 states)

    When it comes to vehicles, PA is not VA, unfortunately.
    Cite please.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please.

    See if this covers it for you...

    http://www.pa2a.org/wiki.php?wid=23

    18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    (a) Offense defined.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any
    person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed
    place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a
    felony of the third degree.
    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries
    a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except
    in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has
    not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

    (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

    ....

    (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of
    assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.
    ...
    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the
    place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back
    to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another
    or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property
    under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction
    intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which
    the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or
    back upon
    return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment
    pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale,
    lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for
    safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for
    safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.
    ...
    (11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and
    lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or
    any other state.


    There's more to be found by following the link above, and worth reading, but I think that's the jist of it. :wink:



    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    See if this covers it for you...

    http://www.pa2a.org/wiki.php?wid=23

    There's more to be found by following the link above, and worth reading, but I think that's the jist of it. :wink:

    That is precisely why I have a permit whuch stays in my vehicle when in PA and why I carry sterile when on foot - do the same in VA.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
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    Part of the confusion comes from the fact that Open Carry is not mentioned in the law, anywhere (except Section 6108 regarding Philadelphia). Since Open Carry isn't specifically prohibited, it is legal, statewide. And the law, or lack of law, applies to everyone, whether they are a citizen of the Commonwealth, a visitor, or just passing through. Yes, it even applies to subjects of the Peoples' Republics to our east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    You may not unload the handgun, toss it in the trunk, travel to your destination, and then begin to open carry upon your arrival just for the purpose of open carrying.
    Are we sure this is the case? PA statues only mentions Carrying in a vehicle, not Transporting.

    http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.006.000..HTM
    § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
    (a) Offense defined.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    Then if we are Transporting, and not Carrying, the exceptions to the above need not apply, and are we covered under:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A
    18 U.S. Code § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms
    Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
    That is as long as "from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess" applies to intrastate travel as well as interstate travel. And it sounds like it has Preemption over any state statute even if PA did have one regarding Transporting.

    If so, couldn't one open carry at one location in PA, unload and transport it in accordance with 18 U.S. Code § 926A to another location in PA, and then open carry there?

  9. #9
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Yes, we are sure this is the case. FOPA does not provide the coverage you think it does. FOPA only protects one when transporting/traveling through restrictive states. FOPA goes not govern activities at the destination state. If it did we'd all be carrying with impunity in New Jersey, wouldn't we?

    And we aren't are we?
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoVaJohn View Post
    Then if we are Transporting, and not Carrying, the exceptions to the above need not apply, and are we covered...
    Pennsylvania's laws on carrying vs. transporting are relatively clear, as ruled by the courts. If you have a vehicle, whether it's a skateboard, motorcycle, bicycle, unicycle, automobile, tractor, riding lawnmower, horse, bus, train, pogo stick, you need an LTCF, or a license from another state (if you're not a Pennsylvanian) to have the firearm (handgun, SBR or SBS) in or on the vehicle. Whether it's on your person, carried openly or concealed, or in the trunk, or in the glove box, doesn't matter.

    Bottom line: As far as vehicles are concerned, transporting and carrying are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Pennsylvania's laws on carrying vs. transporting are relatively clear, as ruled by the courts. If you have a vehicle, whether it's a skateboard, motorcycle, bicycle, unicycle, automobile, tractor, riding lawnmower, horse, bus, train, pogo stick, you need an LTCF, or a license from another state (if you're not a Pennsylvanian) to have the firearm (handgun, SBR or SBS) in or on the vehicle. Whether it's on your person, carried openly or concealed, or in the trunk, or in the glove box, doesn't matter.

    Bottom line: As far as vehicles are concerned, transporting and carrying are the same.
    Thanks for clarifying that for me. Am I even able to transport to the house we are renting for the family reunion then? Does it qualify as a place I can lawfully posses and carry that I can transport to under 18 U.S. Code § 926A? Would a hotel we were having a family reunion at over a weekend?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoVaJohn View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that for me. Am I even able to transport to the house we are renting for the family reunion then? Does it qualify as a place I can lawfully posses and carry that I can transport to under 18 U.S. Code § 926A? Would a hotel we were having a family reunion at over a weekend?
    Again, FOPA only covers you for your transport through intermediate states, not origination or destination states, so it is irrelevant in this example.

    In your situation PA law governs and there is an exception for what you want to do as I have already posted above, although I admit the text within that link is a bit lengthy. Exception #8 answers your question...

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the
    place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back

    to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another
    or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back,
    As to possession of your firearm at or within a hotel/motel, or campgrounds, or any other private property, you would be subject to any "no guns" restrictions put in place by the property owners, but Pennsylvania has no law against it, and my experience over the past 6 1/2 years has been that most places don't have a problem with it

    Damn shame you have not secured some license or permit from Virginia, or any other state. An oddity of our PA statutes is that you could then transport (or carry) a loaded handgun throughout our Commonwealth, except Philadelphia or within 1000' of school property (thanks to the federal Gun Free School Zone Act), and then open carry once you get out of your car. All day long.

    PA has a couple really dumb laws on the books and this is among the worst. We fight it just about every chance we get. We lose due to a lack of legislators with a spine and testicles.

    Despite your having to deal with the nuisance of adjusting to the differences between the laws of our respective Commonwealths, I hope you otherwise enjoy your visit to PA. I've spent a great amount of time in Virginia myself, for work and vacation, and it is one of my favorite places on the east coast.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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