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Thread: What's a permit have to do with it.

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    What's a permit have to do with it.

    Concealed handgun permit holder found NOT GUILTY by jury
    **************************************************

    Nicholas Thiel got into a confrontation with his girlfriend’s estranged husband and ended up shooting the husband.* The jury agreed it was a case if self-defense, finding Thiel not guilty.

    So, in the jury’s mind, Thiel **reasonably** felt that he was in danger of being killed or grievously hurt when he shot the husband.

    Very sad that it had to come to the point where lethal force was required.

    http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/J...304722141.html

    or

    http://tinyurl.com/p7xwuo8

    HARRISONBURG, Va. (WHSV) -- A jury found Nicholas Thiel not guilty on Friday afternoon.

    Nicholas Thiel was accused of shooting and killing Clifford Polk in October 2014.

    Friday marked day four of the trial that was originally scheduled to last three days.

    During Friday's closing arguments, when Commonwealth's Attorney Marsha Garst brought up picture after picture of Polk with his family.

    "Now those kids will never see their father again," she said.

    Polk's family then burst into tears.

    Thiel was charged of second-degree murder and using a firearm in commission of a felony.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    What's a permit have to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Concealed handgun permit holder found NOT GUILTY by jury
    **************************************************

    Nicholas Thiel got into a confrontation with his girlfriend’s estranged husband and ended up shooting the husband.* The jury agreed it was a case if self-defense, finding Thiel not guilty.

    So, in the jury’s mind, Thiel **reasonably** felt that he was in danger of being killed or grievously hurt when he shot the husband.

    Very sad that it had to come to the point where lethal force was required.

    http://www.whsv.com/home/headlines/J...304722141.html

    or

    http://tinyurl.com/p7xwuo8

    HARRISONBURG, Va. (WHSV) -- A jury found Nicholas Thiel not guilty on Friday afternoon.

    Nicholas Thiel was accused of shooting and killing Clifford Polk in October 2014.

    Friday marked day four of the trial that was originally scheduled to last three days.

    During Friday's closing arguments, when Commonwealth's Attorney Marsha Garst brought up picture after picture of Polk with his family.

    "Now those kids will never see their father again," she said.

    Polk's family then burst into tears.

    Thiel was charged of second-degree murder and using a firearm in commission of a felony.
    Unfortunately members of the media are not required to have a reasonable working knowledge of either English or the law. Fact is though that they are good at provoking knee jerk responses and their brothers/sisters of the press will automatically repeat the errors.

    Everybody knows that permit means gun and only gun, which everybody also knows makes one more evil and capable of making some one more dead than if they used a knife, club, or hands....otherwise our legislature would not have added "using a firearm in the commission of a felony."

    For those that don't know (media included) there is no "not guilty" verdict for a charge of murder. The proper term would either be justified or excusable.

    So what does a "permit" have to do with it? Why everything - he probably had it hidden like a common criminal too.

    Who cried for the real victim in all of this? A man's life has irrevocably been changed.

    Maybe members of the media should be compelled to have a permit before putting pen to paper or picking up a microphone. Responsible journalism is on my short list.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-28-2015 at 07:34 AM. Reason: added
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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    I am amazed..

    How about that CA going for the sympathy ploy on the jury? "These children will have no father......." as she shows pictures of kids. WTF!!!!!! Where in the law does the aftermath matter? Either a crime was committed (and her duty would be to prosecute) or it was not. The fatherless nature of the children should have no bearing on the case. Doubly so when it appears the "dearly departed" was an active participant in "Play stupid games, Win stupid prizes". Shame on her. How can we appeal for censure of her for her actions?
    Last edited by The Wolfhound; 05-28-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    For those that don't know (media included) there is no "not guilty" verdict for a charge of murder. The proper term would either be justified or excusable.

    .
    You want to run that by me one more time, chief?

    Excusable and justified are the affirmative defenses to a charge of murder. In order to claim an affirmative defense you have to start out pleading guilty. (I done it but there was a reason.)

    Using just one case, media.hamptonroads.com/images/news/instructions.pdf , the jury instructions range from guilty of any of several flavors of murder to not guilty. And each of the possibilities are based on the prosecution convincing the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did something. If the prosecution fails, even though the defendant sure as shooting did what they are accused of doing, the verdict still comes out as not guilty.

    stay safe.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You want to run that by me one more time, chief?

    Excusable and justified are the affirmative defenses to a charge of murder. In order to claim an affirmative defense you have to start out pleading guilty. (I done it but there was a reason.)

    Using just one case, media.hamptonroads.com/images/news/instructions.pdf , the jury instructions range from guilty of any of several flavors of murder to not guilty. And each of the possibilities are based on the prosecution convincing the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did something. If the prosecution fails, even though the defendant sure as shooting did what they are accused of doing, the verdict still comes out as not guilty.

    stay safe.
    Me mind must have been bent more than usual - would have sworn I was paraphrasing User.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    How about that CA going for the sympathy ploy on the jury? "These children will have no father......." as she shows pictures of kids. WTF!!!!!! Where in the law does the aftermath matter? Either a crime was committed (and her duty would be to prosecute) or it was not. The fatherless nature of the children should have no bearing on the case. Doubly so when it appears the "dearly departed" was an active participant in "Play stupid games, Win stupid prizes". Shame on her. How can we appeal for censure of her for her actions?
    To be honest, I'm surprised myself. I know Marsha, grew up with her brother, watched her go from diapers to passing the bar and that's not her style. She's normally a just the facts kind of lawyer.

    My original question was why the alert emphasized Permit holder as if that makes him one of the good guys. From what I know of the case, none of them are good guys and I expect the kids are the only ones that'll miss the deceased.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-28-2015 at 01:17 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Someone must have registered the OP complaint as I don't see anything about concealed carry permit in the linked story or any of the historical links in the sidebar. I assume from that OP that this issue was part of the original headline.

    Heck, they even get this right, "If Thiel is convicted of murder, Polk's death would be the first murder in Bridgewater in 40 years." They clearly understand the difference between murder and homicide and aren't trying to split hairs on the issue as many of the big name MSM do regularly.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Someone must have registered the OP complaint as I don't see anything about concealed carry permit in the linked story or any of the historical links in the sidebar. I assume from that OP that this issue was part of the original headline.

    Heck, they even get this right, "If Thiel is convicted of murder, Polk's death would be the first murder in Bridgewater in 40 years." They clearly understand the difference between murder and homicide and aren't trying to split hairs on the issue as many of the big name MSM do regularly.
    I think the title was inserted in the alerts because I haven't seen it in any news either.
    It's not the first murder in 40 years though. The Gratten kid murdered the dentist a few years ago.

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I stand corrected. GRATTEN was 50 feet over the line in Rockingham county. The last murder might have been where Pope killed Wayne Statamayer .

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    As to the original post....

    To the reporter, in his "Perfect Understanding of the World", only those with permits may legally carry a firearm. I would bet he understands the Virginia Pistol Registration, too. After all, on his TV, all the guns are registered. He cannot conceive of a different reality, much less understand the one we (himself included) actually live in. There lies one of my issues with TV being written and produced in New York and California. Even if the writers should reach out to find out how the laws exist, they get those perverted versions from Ca. and NY.
    Last edited by The Wolfhound; 05-29-2015 at 11:40 AM.
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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    How popular is Garst?

    She's running for reelection; if this is to be believed, she's popular ... among cops:

    Marsha Garst Running for Re-Election
    "To the gang members I have a simple message. I am not afraid of you. I am coming for you. "I am going to use every weapon, through the Harrisonburg Police Department, the Rockingham County Sheriff's Office, Virginia State Police, local law enforcement and all federal resources to stop you from changing our way of life, our community, and the people that we love and care about," said Garst.

    She was first elected to the position in 1999. Since then she has won re-election three times.
    Not popular here, though:

    Rudy Dean Supporters Question Commonwealth's Attorney
    In January, Rudy Dean was arrested and taken into custody for shooting Robert Crawford in the neck. Dean says it was self defense.

    On Monday, Dean's supporters rallied in protest on Monday. They said he has been treated unfairly.

    Dean's supporters said he was not in the wrong and the victim has even admitted under oath that he was the agressor. Dean is charged with aggravated malicious wounding, which is a charge with a maximum penalty of life in prison, if he is convicted.

    ...

    Other supporters said this is not the first time the Commonwealth's Attorney's Office has been questioned. In 2008, former Harrisonburg City Treasurer Becky Neal pleaded guilty to misusing public funds, which she still says she did not do. Recently, Neal filed a complaint claiming the Commonwealth's attorney withheld evidence in her case.

    "Marsha Garst used her office and her power to silence me. The Commonwealth attorney destroyed my life and the life of my family out of petty political retribution,” said Neal.

    After nearly five years of silence, she is sharing her story in hopes of change.

    "The Commonwealth continues to bully and harass citizens of Rockingham County, and we all must stand up against this corruption before it happens to someone you love."
    I'm seeing a pattern here.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    She's running for reelection; if this is to be believed, she's popular ... among cops:

    Marsha Garst Running for Re-Election


    Not popular here, though:

    Rudy Dean Supporters Question Commonwealth's Attorney


    I'm seeing a pattern here.
    Aahhh the old neighborhood. Mountain folks at their best. Deans, Crawfords and Shiffletts oh my!

    It was an interesting area way back and apparently has gotten more so.

    There were the old line mountain people, many that married a little close to home. The "he needed killing" rule has always been a strong motivating factor. Interstate 81 became a drug pipeline with Bridgewater (Home of if you like a college town song) square in the pipe. In the 60s and 70's the Pagans set up shop there...hell, even the police chiefs son became a major player.

    Elkton stayed a Hotspot for fighting and as the years progressed, up Noth gangs like MS13 moved into Harrisonburg.

    The expansion of James Madison and Massanutten dumped money in the area and more demand for drugs.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-29-2015 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    SNIP Heck, they even get this right, "If Thiel is convicted of murder, Polk's death would be the first murder in Bridgewater in 40 years."
    I wonder if the news organization will now go back and revise their story to include, "Had Polk succeeded in his threats, Thiel's death would have been the first murder in Bridgewater in 40 years."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I wonder if the news organization will now go back and revise their story to include, "Had Polk succeeded in his threats, Thiel's death would have been the first murder in Bridgewater in 40 years."
    Local media seems to have its collective head screwed on right on this issue. But if the NYT carries it I'm sure it will amount to killing innocents in the street with a full auto M16.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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