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Thread: No EMPTY Gun Holsters Allowed In St.Louis Zoo!

  1. #1
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    Angry No EMPTY Gun Holsters Allowed In St.Louis Zoo!

    Got kicked out of Stl Zoo for wearing an empty IWB holster. Note i was in zoo for 2hrs before i made contact with park security and asked about it. My shirt was off because it was like 84 outside on Memorial's Day and u can see the IWB holster i was wearing was empty. After I asked about the sign, i got my answer do i walked away. I then got followed by 2 security officers. Then im guessing the head guy (Steve) approaches me. He ask if i was carrying, i ask was i being detained he said until he sees im not carrying YES.

    I stop show him the EMPTY holster witch should have ended it and was sayn i was leaving anyways. I was still followed. Since i was followed i start resiting the New Missouri Constitution and SB656 and were told they were wrong and SB656 did not apply to them. Thats when i stopped and said i think ill stay a little longer, i was then threatened with w call to the Police if I didn't leave. If i Really didnt have to go. It would be more.

    Got a call from a Dustin in Marketing, and he said the Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park and they dont allow guns, bit in same breath said they follow all the Missouri constitutional laws!! Really. What ya'll think.

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    With regards to CC:

    Quote Originally Posted by 571.107
    571.107.1 (13) "[firearms not permitted]...Any gated area of an amusement park. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the amusement park shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises"
    HOWEVER!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 571.107
    571.107.2 "Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises."
    So basically, the Zoo is full of crap.



    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
    Last edited by Oramac; 05-28-2015 at 04:39 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The OP does not confirm or deny whether he has a CC permit - it is my understanding that such is necessary to OC........but an empty holster.....really?

    However, I would like to know what the claim that the zoo is a "Gated Amusement Park" has to do with anything and "SB656 did not apply to them" is really funny.

    Strange too that you say you got a call from Dustin in Marketing (zoo) - why would you give them your phone number? Some things just don't add up here - please elaborate.
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    empty holster is empty. as such violates NO laws. marketing person was full of crap.. petition outside of zoo with signs, boycotting said "amusement" park.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Is the zoo owned by the city, county, or state? If not, they are within their rights to trespass you, if they are, then get an attorney. Empty holster is not a crime, or RAS of a crime, if there are no other factors I hear the sound of a cash register.

    I hope you were recording.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 05-28-2015 at 05:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ...However, I would like to know what the claim that the zoo is a "Gated Amusement Park" has to do with anything and "SB656 did not apply to them" is really funny.
    Exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ...Strange too that you say you got a call from Dustin in Marketing (zoo) - why would you give them your phone number? Some things just don't add up here - please elaborate.
    Peyton is a friend of mine, I'll vouch for him.

    What he was trying to say is that he contacted the Zoo via Facebook/e-mail, and received a call from Dustin in Marketing as a reply.
    Last edited by BB62; 05-28-2015 at 05:15 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    The Zoo is a government entity: "The Saint Louis Zoo is legally classified as a tax-supported political subdistrict of the State of Missouri. Essentially, the Zoo is a government agency and has restrictions on how it raises and spends money..."

    http://www.stlzoo.org/about/organization/


    The Zoo, even if it is an "amusement park" (and if you think so, please say how it is, or find in the MRS where an "amusement park" is defined), what is prohibited is concealed carry - NOT open carry: http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/st...100001071.html


    As far as I'm concerned, the zoo cannot prohibit open or concealed carry, except in whatever portion of it might be considered an "amusement park", since it does have a few rides.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Since he wasn't even carrying I doubt they were going to pursue anything in RSMo 571. I would guess they were thinking trespass if he refused to leave which I guess could have resulted in a citation. But again, not under 571 as there was no firearm present.

    As to the zoo being an "Amusement Park" under 571, I think that is a stretch. The zoo and the zoological subdistrict exists under Section 184, Museums--Metropolitan Park Districts and Memorials. The only way "amusement" comes into it is that the train at the zoo probably falls under RSMo 316 as an "amusement ride", but being that a bungee cord "ride" also falls under the same, I think arguing that the entirety of the zoo is an amusement park because it has one single attraction that falls under a statute containing the word "amusement" is quite the stretch.

    Anyone else seeing a problem with a municipal zoo using 571.107.1 (13) as the basis for restricting any carry otherwise legal under RSMO 571?
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Anyone else seeing a problem with a municipal zoo using 571.107.1 (13) as the basis for restricting any carry otherwise legal under RSMO 571?
    I see a problem with 571.107 even having restrictions after SB656 and A5 passed.

    But even so, Paragraph 2 of 571.107 makes their sign less than worthless anyway. In this case, less than that, even, since there was no firearm present.
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    I don't understand why the OPer asked security about it in the first place.

    Also, its not clear from the OP whether the IWB was visible at all times, or whether it was hiding under a shirt?

    I guess if the empty holster was hiding under a shirt, one could make a case for a privately-owned zoo following him to ascertain whether he was carrying in violation of park rules. If a guy asks me whether its OK to carry, I gotta wonder whether he is or not. Its a little different if he says he'd like to carry the next time he brings his kids to the zoo, is carry OK?

    I can't see the detention, though. Unless expressly authorized by state law, the most I can see is a privately owned zoo exercising their property rights by asking him to leave. Then escorting him out or following him out to ensure he leaves. It would be silly to ask an empty holster to leave, but it would be within the rights of a privately owned zoo I should think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    ...As to the zoo being an "Amusement Park" under 571, I think that is a stretch. The zoo and the zoological subdistrict exists under Section 184, Museums--Metropolitan Park Districts and Memorials. The only way "amusement" comes into it is that the train at the zoo probably falls under RSMo 316 as an "amusement ride", but being that a bungee cord "ride" also falls under the same, I think arguing that the entirety of the zoo is an amusement park because it has one single attraction that falls under a statute containing the word "amusement" is quite the stretch.

    Anyone else seeing a problem with a municipal zoo using 571.107.1 (13) as the basis for restricting any carry otherwise legal under RSMO 571?
    Right on, and great Section 184 cite.

    Here's a sample: http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/st...400003501.html

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    Will your cell phone / camera fit in your holster?

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Right on, and great Section 184 cite.
    Thanks.

    Further, as I understand the zoo property could be argued to or may actually be owned by or controlled to some degree by the Municipality of St. Louis (although I believe it is controlled by a board, something in my memory says ownership of the land is vested in the City of St. Louis and its ownership flows out of a common vesting with Forest Park - I haven't done any real estate title work around there in over a decade and then worked on adjacent land to the park encountering Forest Park and its accoutrements only tangentially) and if such is the case, carry in zoo buildings could likely be proscribed with signage under RSMO 571, but I don't think the open air areas of the zoo could be so encumbered by signage.

    IANAL and don't have time to dig more right now, but comment from anyone with better information would be appreciated.
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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Following up: Peyton is going to communicate with the Zoo, so from here on out, at least while his conversations with them are productive, it would be wise for us to only list the reasons the Zoo CAN'T prohibit firearms.

    If they think they can - let them come up with the basis.

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    I asked cause i wanted to know? They also have a no smoking unless in designated places but people were smoking throughout. It was hot outside so i removed my long sleeve shirt i had on. My IWB was visible throughout my 2hrs me wife and I were there

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
    I asked cause i wanted to know? They also have a no smoking unless in designated places but people were smoking throughout. It was hot outside so i removed my long sleeve shirt i had on. My IWB was visible throughout my 2hrs me wife and I were there
    Sometimes it is better to not ask, especially of the local enforcement people - raises the question unnecessarily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Thanks.

    Further, as I understand the zoo property could be argued to or may actually be owned by or controlled to some degree by the Municipality of St. Louis (although I believe it is controlled by a board, something in my memory says ownership of the land is vested in the City of St. Louis and its ownership flows out of a common vesting with Forest Park - I haven't done any real estate title work around there in over a decade and then worked on adjacent land to the park encountering Forest Park and its accoutrements only tangentially) and if such is the case, carry in zoo buildings could likely be proscribed with signage under RSMO 571, but I don't think the open air areas of the zoo could be so encumbered by signage.

    IANAL and don't have time to dig more right now, but comment from anyone with better information would be appreciated.
    Thanks for the PM.

    As I suspected, concealed carry might be able to be disallowed, but not open carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
    I asked cause i wanted to know? They also have a no smoking unless in designated places but people were smoking throughout. It was hot outside so i removed my long sleeve shirt i had on. My IWB was visible throughout my 2hrs me wife and I were there
    Thanks. You covered the most important base of all--too many drive-by postings that never come back, answer questions, or even give a simple thanks for answers to questions. That you responded to my post at all says a lot.

    I failed to give context to my question about why you would even ask. My fault. I apologize. Many OCers hold an article of faith that asking whether carry is permitted just gives the recipient of the question the opportunity to say "no". ("No" being the safest answer. Why take a chance and say "yes" or "maybe" on a question that "seems" "dangerous?")

    Please forgive my manners. Welcome to OCDO!! (open carry dot org).
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Still trying to figure this out. Im on a Iphone. Thanks for all the replies. Hope my reply to why I asked wasnt taken wrong. I really did wanna know cause i felt it was wrong. Im now sending emails to the PR people since Marketing can't answer my questions.

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    To Grapeshot. I sent them a email requesting the materials they train there employees on since the new changes to the Mo Constitution and SB656. And got Dustin from Marketing. I let him know our conversation was being recorded HE agreed. Then when i start citing Laws, he then said he no longer felt comfortable being recorded! Got Dustin from marketing saying and I quote "The Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park". Really now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
    To Grapeshot. I sent them a email requesting the materials they train there employees on since the new changes to the Mo Constitution and SB656. And got Dustin from Marketing. I let him know our conversation was being recorded HE agreed. Then when i start citing Laws, he then said he no longer felt comfortable being recorded! Got Dustin from marketing saying and I quote "The Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park". Really now.
    Open carry is legal almost everywhere, amusement parks, schools, etc. Especially if you have a CCW.

    Sounds like you guys in the St. Louis area need an OC meet up at the zoo with about 15 people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
    To Grapeshot. I sent them a email requesting the materials they train there employees on since the new changes to the Mo Constitution and SB656. And got Dustin from Marketing. I let him know our conversation was being recorded HE agreed. Then when i start citing Laws, he then said he no longer felt comfortable being recorded! Got Dustin from marketing saying and I quote "The Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park". Really now.
    Sometimes saying less is more. You did not have to advise him that you were recording. Missouri is a one party consent state and you were one of the parties.

    http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/missouri-recording-law
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    Sounds like you guys in the St. Louis area need an OC meet up at the zoo with about 15 people.
    Depending on the day, I could make it.
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    You take your shirt off whenever it's above 80? Really?

    That's probably why they hassled you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    You take your shirt off whenever it's above 80? Really?

    That's probably why they hassled you.
    80 is probably very hot for them.
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