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No EMPTY Gun Holsters Allowed In St.Louis Zoo!

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Peyton

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Got kicked out of Stl Zoo for wearing an empty IWB holster. Note i was in zoo for 2hrs before i made contact with park security and asked about it. My shirt was off because it was like 84 outside on Memorial's Day and u can see the IWB holster i was wearing was empty. After I asked about the sign, i got my answer do i walked away. I then got followed by 2 security officers. Then im guessing the head guy (Steve) approaches me. He ask if i was carrying, i ask was i being detained he said until he sees im not carrying YES.

I stop show him the EMPTY holster witch should have ended it and was sayn i was leaving anyways. I was still followed. Since i was followed i start resiting the New Missouri Constitution and SB656 and were told they were wrong and SB656 did not apply to them. Thats when i stopped and said i think ill stay a little longer, i was then threatened with w call to the Police if I didn't leave. If i Really didnt have to go. It would be more.

Got a call from a Dustin in Marketing, and he said the Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park and they dont allow guns, bit in same breath said they follow all the Missouri constitutional laws!! Really. What ya'll think.
 

Oramac

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572
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St Louis, Mo
With regards to CC:

571.107 said:
571.107.1 (13) "[firearms not permitted]...Any gated area of an amusement park. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the amusement park shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises"

HOWEVER!!!

571.107 said:
571.107.2 "Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises."

So basically, the Zoo is full of crap.



Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
 
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Grapeshot

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The OP does not confirm or deny whether he has a CC permit - it is my understanding that such is necessary to OC........but an empty holster.....really?

However, I would like to know what the claim that the zoo is a "Gated Amusement Park" has to do with anything and "SB656 did not apply to them" is really funny. :lol:

Strange too that you say you got a call from Dustin in Marketing (zoo) - why would you give them your phone number? Some things just don't add up here - please elaborate.
 

Ezek

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empty holster is empty. as such violates NO laws. marketing person was full of crap.. petition outside of zoo with signs, boycotting said "amusement" park.
 

WalkingWolf

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Is the zoo owned by the city, county, or state? If not, they are within their rights to trespass you, if they are, then get an attorney. Empty holster is not a crime, or RAS of a crime, if there are no other factors I hear the sound of a cash register.

I hope you were recording.
 
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BB62

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...However, I would like to know what the claim that the zoo is a "Gated Amusement Park" has to do with anything and "SB656 did not apply to them" is really funny. :lol:
Exactly.


...Strange too that you say you got a call from Dustin in Marketing (zoo) - why would you give them your phone number? Some things just don't add up here - please elaborate.
Peyton is a friend of mine, I'll vouch for him.

What he was trying to say is that he contacted the Zoo via Facebook/e-mail, and received a call from Dustin in Marketing as a reply.
 
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BB62

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The Zoo is a government entity: "The Saint Louis Zoo is legally classified as a tax-supported political subdistrict of the State of Missouri. Essentially, the Zoo is a government agency and has restrictions on how it raises and spends money..."

http://www.stlzoo.org/about/organization/


The Zoo, even if it is an "amusement park" (and if you think so, please say how it is, or find in the MRS where an "amusement park" is defined), what is prohibited is concealed carry - NOT open carry: http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/57100001071.html


As far as I'm concerned, the zoo cannot prohibit open or concealed carry, except in whatever portion of it might be considered an "amusement park", since it does have a few rides.
 

deepdiver

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Since he wasn't even carrying I doubt they were going to pursue anything in RSMo 571. I would guess they were thinking trespass if he refused to leave which I guess could have resulted in a citation. But again, not under 571 as there was no firearm present.

As to the zoo being an "Amusement Park" under 571, I think that is a stretch. The zoo and the zoological subdistrict exists under Section 184, Museums--Metropolitan Park Districts and Memorials. The only way "amusement" comes into it is that the train at the zoo probably falls under RSMo 316 as an "amusement ride", but being that a bungee cord "ride" also falls under the same, I think arguing that the entirety of the zoo is an amusement park because it has one single attraction that falls under a statute containing the word "amusement" is quite the stretch.

Anyone else seeing a problem with a municipal zoo using 571.107.1 (13) as the basis for restricting any carry otherwise legal under RSMO 571?
 

Oramac

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Anyone else seeing a problem with a municipal zoo using 571.107.1 (13) as the basis for restricting any carry otherwise legal under RSMO 571?

I see a problem with 571.107 even having restrictions after SB656 and A5 passed.

But even so, Paragraph 2 of 571.107 makes their sign less than worthless anyway. In this case, less than that, even, since there was no firearm present.
 

Citizen

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I don't understand why the OPer asked security about it in the first place.

Also, its not clear from the OP whether the IWB was visible at all times, or whether it was hiding under a shirt?

I guess if the empty holster was hiding under a shirt, one could make a case for a privately-owned zoo following him to ascertain whether he was carrying in violation of park rules. If a guy asks me whether its OK to carry, I gotta wonder whether he is or not. Its a little different if he says he'd like to carry the next time he brings his kids to the zoo, is carry OK?

I can't see the detention, though. Unless expressly authorized by state law, the most I can see is a privately owned zoo exercising their property rights by asking him to leave. Then escorting him out or following him out to ensure he leaves. It would be silly to ask an empty holster to leave, but it would be within the rights of a privately owned zoo I should think.
 

BB62

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...As to the zoo being an "Amusement Park" under 571, I think that is a stretch. The zoo and the zoological subdistrict exists under Section 184, Museums--Metropolitan Park Districts and Memorials. The only way "amusement" comes into it is that the train at the zoo probably falls under RSMo 316 as an "amusement ride", but being that a bungee cord "ride" also falls under the same, I think arguing that the entirety of the zoo is an amusement park because it has one single attraction that falls under a statute containing the word "amusement" is quite the stretch.

Anyone else seeing a problem with a municipal zoo using 571.107.1 (13) as the basis for restricting any carry otherwise legal under RSMO 571?
Right on, and great Section 184 cite.

Here's a sample: http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/18400003501.html
 

deepdiver

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Right on, and great Section 184 cite.

Thanks.

Further, as I understand the zoo property could be argued to or may actually be owned by or controlled to some degree by the Municipality of St. Louis (although I believe it is controlled by a board, something in my memory says ownership of the land is vested in the City of St. Louis and its ownership flows out of a common vesting with Forest Park - I haven't done any real estate title work around there in over a decade and then worked on adjacent land to the park encountering Forest Park and its accoutrements only tangentially) and if such is the case, carry in zoo buildings could likely be proscribed with signage under RSMO 571, but I don't think the open air areas of the zoo could be so encumbered by signage.

IANAL and don't have time to dig more right now, but comment from anyone with better information would be appreciated.
 

BB62

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Following up: Peyton is going to communicate with the Zoo, so from here on out, at least while his conversations with them are productive, it would be wise for us to only list the reasons the Zoo CAN'T prohibit firearms.

If they think they can - let them come up with the basis.
 

Peyton

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I asked cause i wanted to know? They also have a no smoking unless in designated places but people were smoking throughout. It was hot outside so i removed my long sleeve shirt i had on. My IWB was visible throughout my 2hrs me wife and I were there
 

Grapeshot

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I asked cause i wanted to know? They also have a no smoking unless in designated places but people were smoking throughout. It was hot outside so i removed my long sleeve shirt i had on. My IWB was visible throughout my 2hrs me wife and I were there
Sometimes it is better to not ask, especially of the local enforcement people - raises the question unnecessarily.
 

BB62

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Thanks.

Further, as I understand the zoo property could be argued to or may actually be owned by or controlled to some degree by the Municipality of St. Louis (although I believe it is controlled by a board, something in my memory says ownership of the land is vested in the City of St. Louis and its ownership flows out of a common vesting with Forest Park - I haven't done any real estate title work around there in over a decade and then worked on adjacent land to the park encountering Forest Park and its accoutrements only tangentially) and if such is the case, carry in zoo buildings could likely be proscribed with signage under RSMO 571, but I don't think the open air areas of the zoo could be so encumbered by signage.

IANAL and don't have time to dig more right now, but comment from anyone with better information would be appreciated.
Thanks for the PM.

As I suspected, concealed carry might be able to be disallowed, but not open carry.
 

Citizen

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I asked cause i wanted to know? They also have a no smoking unless in designated places but people were smoking throughout. It was hot outside so i removed my long sleeve shirt i had on. My IWB was visible throughout my 2hrs me wife and I were there

Thanks. You covered the most important base of all--too many drive-by postings that never come back, answer questions, or even give a simple thanks for answers to questions. That you responded to my post at all says a lot.

I failed to give context to my question about why you would even ask. My fault. I apologize. Many OCers hold an article of faith that asking whether carry is permitted just gives the recipient of the question the opportunity to say "no". ("No" being the safest answer. Why take a chance and say "yes" or "maybe" on a question that "seems" "dangerous?")

Please forgive my manners. Welcome to OCDO!! (open carry dot org).
 

Peyton

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Missouri
Still trying to figure this out. Im on a Iphone. Thanks for all the replies. Hope my reply to why I asked wasnt taken wrong. I really did wanna know cause i felt it was wrong. Im now sending emails to the PR people since Marketing can't answer my questions.
 

Peyton

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Missouri
To Grapeshot. I sent them a email requesting the materials they train there employees on since the new changes to the Mo Constitution and SB656. And got Dustin from Marketing. I let him know our conversation was being recorded HE agreed. Then when i start citing Laws, he then said he no longer felt comfortable being recorded! Got Dustin from marketing saying and I quote "The Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park". Really now.
 
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