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Open carrier not shot first. stops mass killing

nonameisgood

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In this situation, I would say that the shooter is an ongoing threat to you since you witnessed the shooting and he did shoot at bystanders.


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OC for ME

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May a private person effect custody?
Depends on the specifics.

Section 548.141.1 addresses what appears to be felonies, though the language is vague. Other statutes address a citizen's arrest in similar vague terms. A cop can order me to arrest (hold the same arrest powers as he) when he deems it necessary. I can get in trouble if I decline to come to the aide of the civil power.

Talking with a cop buddy of mine a citizen's arrest is lawful as long as you hold the perp in that location until cops arrive. Hog tying him and tossing in the bed of my truck then hauling him to the station house would likely land me in some hot water.
 

OC for ME

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In this situation, I would say that the shooter is an ongoing threat to you since you witnessed the shooting and he did shoot at bystanders.

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What if i see a fella returning fire to enable his escape from a violent crime perpetrated against him? Looks like he is the perp but in fact he is not the perp but the/a victim.

Conundrum.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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I agree, but I also think that one needs to be careful to not carry this farther than having witnessed something so clear cut. The obvious error would be for LAC#1 to shoot the (disengaged) bad guy and then LAC#2 only sees the shooting of someone who wasn't an active shooter so he shoots LAC#1. This is a reasonable concern if/when those less thoughtful decide to carry. It could be hard to know who is who as the players move away from the initial events.

That's certainly a creative 'what if' but has it ever happened? The probability seems awful low.
 

decklin

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Depends on the specifics.

Section 548.141.1 addresses what appears to be felonies, though the language is vague. Other statutes address a citizen's arrest in similar vague terms. A cop can order me to arrest (hold the same arrest powers as he) when he deems it necessary. I can get in trouble if I decline to come to the aide of the civil power.

Talking with a cop buddy of mine a citizen's arrest is lawful as long as you hold the perp in that location until cops arrive. Hog tying him and tossing in the bed of my truck then hauling him to the station house would likely land me in some hot water.

Can you cite the law that requires me to place myself in danger?
 

nonameisgood

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That's certainly a creative 'what if' but has it ever happened? The probability seems awful low.

Low probability and high severity with low benefit. Just something of which to be mindful... "How do I look shooting at a guy who no one else knows is a danger?"
Since multiple shootings of uninvolved others are so seldom, statistically speaking, the chance is probably infinitesimal.
 

OC for ME

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Can you cite the law that requires me to place myself in danger?
Nope, you will need to research WA laws all by your self.

Me, I know what MO statutes (most of them) require of me regarding the justifiable use of force. Would a jury convict me of failure to come to the aide of the civil power? I don't know. I suspect that cops would only call me to aide them as a absolute last resort. Which is ironic if ya think about it.

Failure to obey/follow a lawful order of a cop, or some such thing.
 

WalkingWolf

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Low probability and high severity with low benefit. Just something of which to be mindful... "How do I look shooting at a guy who no one else knows is a danger?"
Since multiple shootings of uninvolved others are so seldom, statistically speaking, the chance is probably infinitesimal.

If we go back to the OP, the LAC was in the store at the time of the attack, all the people who might have been armed witnessed the attack. He did not chase the killer, he just fired at him. Who else would you be talking about?

I doubt any intelligent LAC is going to chase down a suspect after a shooting. I myself have repeatedly said I will not get involved, but in this case I would have, it was that severe, and that is what I am talking about. Maybe what others are trying to convey also.

Personal choice, and responsibility would mean each individual must make that decision for themselves at the moment in history. It is their liberty, and live on the line, not mine.
 

nonameisgood

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If we go back to the OP, the LAC was in the store at the time of the attack, all the people who might have been armed witnessed the attack. He did not chase the killer, he just fired at him. Who else would you be talking about?

I doubt any intelligent LAC is going to chase down a suspect after a shooting. I myself have repeatedly said I will not get involved, but in this case I would have, it was that severe, and that is what I am talking about. Maybe what others are trying to convey also.

Personal choice, and responsibility would mean each individual must make that decision for themselves at the moment in history. It is their liberty, and live on the line, not mine.

Agree. Except the part about the "intelligent LAC", which cannot be assumed and were the group my comments were meant to address. There are lots of dumb people.
In the OP's case I am NOT being critical of the LAC's actions. Except to suggest that, maybe, a follow-up head shot would have been effective at stopping the threat in this instance.
 

MAC702

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...Failure to obey/follow a lawful order of a cop, or some such thing.

Which just moves the question to "What authority makes such an abhorrent demand to be a lawful order from a cop?"

I travel the country, so which of your state laws authorizes this?
 
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decklin

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Nope, you will need to research WA laws all by your self.

Me, I know what MO statutes (most of them) require of me regarding the justifiable use of force. Would a jury convict me of failure to come to the aide of the civil power? I don't know. I suspect that cops would only call me to aide them as a absolute last resort. Which is ironic if ya think about it.

Failure to obey/follow a lawful order of a cop, or some such thing.

I didn't ask about wa law. Can you cite any law in any state that requires me, a private citizen, to assist law enforcement against my will?
 

Citizen

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I didn't ask about wa law. Can you cite any law in any state that requires me, a private citizen, to assist law enforcement against my will?

I can't cite, but, I have come across a few states where a citizen is required to assist a cop at the cops request/demand. Memory is pretty foggy, but I have this vague impression it was to help apprehend a criminal.

And, while it is an absurd statutory demand, it makes sense in a perverted sort of way--meaning its too easy to predict when you think about it. One of the declared reasons for a militia is to put down insurrections and so forth.

Mark Twain tells a humorous story along these lines. Twenty years after the War Against Southern Independence shut down riverboat traffic on the Mississippi River, ruining his career as a river boat pilot, Twain decided to take a trip down the Mississippi for old time's sake. In St. Louis he met a fella who catapulted him back twenty years to an event in Twain's life. Twenty years earlier, Twain had been called upon as militia to put down large riots in St. Louis. He was marching in column to the riot scene when he decided he didn't want to participate. He handed his rifle to the fella beside him, saying he was thirsty and wanted to just get a drink. Of course, he never went back. Twenty years later, at the beginning of his trip down the Mississippi he spoke to stranger. That stranger then asked him, "So, did you ever get that drink?" All in a flash it came back to Twain. This was the guy to whom Twain had handed his rifle all those years ago. Twain responded something along the lines that he couldn't remember, but he'd be glad to buy the fellow a drink now.

While a humorous little story, it shows how citizens can be compelled to contribute to law enforcement. I think even the Federalist Papers, or maybe Framer writings, mention the militia being called upon to put down insurrections and enforce the law. So, if government claims the power to call out the militia for law enforcement, its only a small illogical step (on government's part) to commanding citizens to help cops.

I realize the foregoing is pretty indefinite, but I just cannot recall the cites.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Most states have laws going back a century or more that give LE power to commandeer private citizens. It dates back to a time when there were few police, and the police worked with the community more. Today even with the statutes still on the books that LAC would be compelled to assist a officer.
 
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OC for ME

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I didn't ask about wa law. Can you cite any law in any state that requires me, a private citizen, to assist law enforcement against my will?
Please see Post #21. The statute provided has the answer to your question. The law is certainly not about you, contrary to your desires, it is about the state and what power a cop has to do his job. As I stated earlier, will a jury convict me of not following the "lawful" order of the cop? I don't know.

RSMo 542.170.1 What officers may require aid of persons to disperse rioters.

moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/54200001701.html
Essentially, the lawfulness of the cop's order will be decided later. I will not recommend that anyone follow, or not follow, a cop's order, do what you believe is the right thing for you to do at that time, given what you know at that time.
 

decklin

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Please see Post #21. The statute provided has the answer to your question. The law is certainly not about you, contrary to your desires, it is about the state and what power a cop has to do his job. As I stated earlier, will a jury convict me of not following the "lawful" order of the cop? I don't know.

Essentially, the lawfulness of the cop's order will be decided later. I will not recommend that anyone follow, or not follow, a cop's order, do what you believe is the right thing for you to do at that time, given what you know at that time.

There is nothing in there requiring a private citizen to comply.
 

decklin

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Wisc. Stats. § 946.40  Refusing to aid officer.
(1) Whoever, without reasonable excuse, refuses or fails, upon command, to aid any person known by the person to be a peace officer is guilty of a Class C misdemeanor.
(2) This section does not apply if under the circumstances the officer was not authorized to command such assistance.
History: 1977 c. 173.
Under s. 343.305, hospital personnel must administer a blood alcohol test and report the results at the request of an officer, subject to the penalty under this section. 68 Atty. Gen. 209.
In certain circumstances a peace officer may command medical staff at a hospital or clinic to gather evidence from a sexual assault victim. 72 Atty. Gen. 107.

Thanks, that's a lot better. Do you have the statute on hand that lists the requirements/circumstances mentioned in section 2?
 
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