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Thread: It never ceases to amaze me... Take me out to the ball game...

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    It never ceases to amaze me... Take me out to the ball game...

    With all the strong pro-2A responses these types of articles receive, it never ceases to amaze me the frequency at which they just keep coming. It's as if people like Mike Axisa, Baseball Writer, have never seen any debate on the idiocy of so-called "gun-free" zones.

    True, if a ballpark really could screen patrons and prevent them from carrying all manner of firearms, knives, clubs, boots, feet, fists, pencils, pens (you get my drift), then there would be no reason to carry into such a gun-free zones. Short of mass amputation, however, we humans will always have a need to defend ourselves.

    Even though it's mind-boggling that articles like this just keep coming, I see it for the opportunity that it is to educate young Mike and his readers about the fallacy of gun-free zones and our inalienable rights as U.S. citizens.

    I hope you'll join me in responding to people like Mike and others whose educations remain incomplete.

    Carry on!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I've been to Miller Park in Milwaukee (and a couple of other minor and major league stadiums) a few times. They don't even wand people coming into the stadium but have one of those magical signs out front.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    ...
    True, if a ballpark really could screen patrons and prevent them from carrying all manner of firearms, knives, clubs, boots, feet, fists, pencils, pens (you get my drift), then there would be no reason to carry into such a gun-free zones. Short of mass amputation, however, we humans will always have a need to defend ourselves.
    ....
    I know where you are coming from, but even if the ball park could assure a safe, crime free environment within its "security" perimeter, attendees are going to be disarmed from the time they leave home to go to the park until such time as they return home.

    This realization is why I believe that the very rare venue (all ball parks are not one of them) where guns are properly disallowed need to be required to provide appropriate storage for visitors' firearms. That way I can check my gun as I enter the truly secure area, and retrieve it immediately upon leaving.

    If a commercial venue is so opposed to my firearms as to actively prevent me from carrying (as opposed to an unenforced policy or request not to carry), then they probably don't need my business.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I know where you are coming from, but even if the ball park could assure a safe, crime free environment within its "security" perimeter, attendees are going to be disarmed from the time they leave home to go to the park until such time as they return home.

    This realization is why I believe that the very rare venue (all ball parks are not one of them) where guns are properly disallowed need to be required to provide appropriate storage for visitors' firearms. That way I can check my gun as I enter the truly secure area, and retrieve it immediately upon leaving.

    If a commercial venue is so opposed to my firearms as to actively prevent me from carrying (as opposed to an unenforced policy or request not to carry), then they probably don't need my business.

    Charles
    Kind of like Costco?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post2145591
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    I know where you are coming from, but even if the ball park could assure a safe, crime free environment within its "security" perimeter, attendees are going to be disarmed from the time they leave home to go to the park until such time as they return home.

    This realization is why I believe that the very rare venue (all ball parks are not one of them) where guns are properly disallowed need to be required to provide appropriate storage for visitors' firearms. That way I can check my gun as I enter the truly secure area, and retrieve it immediately upon leaving.

    If a commercial venue is so opposed to my firearms as to actively prevent me from carrying (as opposed to an unenforced policy or request not to carry), then they probably don't need my business.

    Charles
    Agreed. The local hospitals are one location where do just that, meaning they have a place to store firearms. All bags are searched, everyone is wanded, and there's a metal detector. Right then and there, however, you can pass your holstered firearm to security behind the counter, and they lock it in a locker and hand you the key.

    The problem is, that's just the ER. One can bring concealed firearms into the hospital proper, and during normal hours, there's nothing preventing someone from walking from the main hospital into the ER. So...
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Kind of like Costco?
    Let me know if you need any help understanding:

    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    ...for me, the benefits of Costco membership are too large to forego over a Corporate policy that has gone no further to actively attack my RKBA than to have an unenforced "no gun" policy in their stores and to support left wing politicians ... I believe the time and money I save shopping at Costco for the items they carry can be better applied to advancing RKBA than would be any benefit of denying Costco that money and spending more time and more money buying those items at other locations.

    Should Costco move to using their profits to actively attack my RKBA, I would have to re-evaluate my calculations on this one.
    [emphasis added]
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Agreed. The local hospitals are one location where do just that, meaning they have a place to store firearms. All bags are searched, everyone is wanded, and there's a metal detector. Right then and there, however, you can pass your holstered firearm to security behind the counter, and they lock it in a locker and hand you the key.
    Some 30 years ago while living in Arizona the law allowed stores to ban guns only if they provided storage. So for a fairly brief season, a couple of grocery stores did just that. You could check your gun and they'd put it in the safe and then you'd retrieve it on your way out. No metal detectors or real security. Just the honor system for those who CC'd. Those who OC'd were a bit easier to spot and I checked my gun a couple of times before moving on to a store that didn't bother. A short time later, most stores dropped the policy as a hassle. I'm not sure whether that law remains or was modified or repealed.

    But at least a person wasn't disarmed from the time he left home (or his car). If a location wants/needs to ban guns I think real security (metal detectors, armed guards) and storage are the minimum that ought to be in place. Doubly so for any government facility.

    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    The problem is, that's just the ER. One can bring concealed firearms into the hospital proper, and during normal hours, there's nothing preventing someone from walking from the main hospital into the ER. So...
    ERs tend to have a lot of people at their worst, including rival gang members. Of course, with the open back door, I suppose anything short of an actual emergency, I'd accidentally tend to use the main doors when available. I might even stop by the security post and check my OC'd firearm if anyone noticed it. Short of having to be wanded, odds are nobody is going to notice my BUG.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  8. #8
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    It's a security concern because the guy carrying the gun didn't do anything with it, but rather it remained properly holstered during his entire visit to the park? Some people don't think very well.
    Last edited by stealthyeliminator; 06-03-2015 at 07:36 AM.
    Advocate freedom please

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Let me know if you need any help understanding:
    Originally Posted by utbagpiper
    ...for me, the benefits of Costco membership are too large to forego over a Corporate policy that has gone no further to actively attack my RKBA than to have an unenforced "no gun" policy in their stores and to support left wing politicians ... I believe the time and money I save shopping at Costco for the items they carry can be better applied to advancing RKBA than would be any benefit of denying Costco that money and spending more time and more money buying those items at other locations.

    Should Costco move to using their profits to actively attack my RKBA, I would have to re-evaluate my calculations on this one.


    [emphasis added]
    Did you just say that you will help an anti gun business that supports left wing politicians and has a no guns policy make a profit because of the benefits you gain by shopping there?

    Isn't a business that supports left wing politicians.... taking an active role in attacking the RKBA?

    Are you are saying it's Ok to help an anti gun business make a profit with the reasoning that the time and money saved supporting an anti gun business being spent on fighting for the right to keep and bear arms makes it Ok to ................. support an anti gun business that supports left wing politicians that fight against the RKBA?

    Perhaps you could help me ... understand... the logic behind how saving time and money supporting a business that is actively fighting against the RKBA is justified because the time and money saved is spent fighting for the RKBA? Isn't that a bit like rowing a boat with one oar?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Ditch Costco and patronize Sam's Club.

    For example, there are nine Costcos in UT, from Provo to north of SLC. Eight Sam's Clubs in approximate locations.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ure-gun-in-car

    Sam's Club follows state law.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ditch Costco and patronize Sam's Club.

    For example, there are nine Costcos in UT, from Provo to north of SLC. Eight Sam's Clubs in approximate locations.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ure-gun-in-car

    Sam's Club follows state law.
    Oh I wish we had a Sams Club here. Our area tends to be anti "big box" yet costco seems to have paid the right people off.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Oh I wish we had a Sams Club here. Our area tends to be anti "big box" yet Costco seems to have paid the right people off.
    Sorry, my friend...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issaquah,_Washington

    Your neck of the woods is infested with liberals and your deduction may be more accurate than you may believe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Sorry, my friend...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issaquah,_Washington

    Your neck of the woods is infested with liberals and your deduction may be more accurate than you may believe.
    Seems there are three in WA; Near Auburn of of I-405 and WA-18, Renton off I-405, and on Aurora Ave. N. in Lake Forest Park (between Sheridan Beach, The Highlands and North City.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Agreed. The local hospitals are one location where do just that, meaning they have a place to store firearms. All bags are searched, everyone is wanded, and there's a metal detector. Right then and there, however, you can pass your holstered firearm to security behind the counter, and they lock it in a locker and hand you the key.

    The problem is, that's just the ER. One can bring concealed firearms into the hospital proper, and during normal hours, there's nothing preventing someone from walking from the main hospital into the ER. So...
    the NC hospitals are signed, and most ERs are metal detector protected. additionally, the 'teaching' hospitals and their parking lots are tied to universities and therefore considered under the purview of the no firearms on educational statutes.

    i, as i am sure the other firearm carriers in NC, would love to have the legal accommodation of having a storage location at facilities e.g., hospitals, judicial, etc., instead of having to leave our firearms at home or in the car, (in my safe notwithstanding)

    ipse.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    svg, not sure why walmart does not seem to be as prolific in the PNW and wondering if fred's stores are the reason. i peeked and tacoma has one and seattle area has five wally worlds while the burg i live in in rural religious eastern NC has three within a twenty mile range plus they are building a mini so it will make it four PLUS a sam's. interestingly, each have different cultural groceries so it is quite pleasant to shop.

    idea svg, come move to rural religious eastern NC so you have the best of all worlds...sam's, unfettered OC'g, beautiful scoot riding area, still got the closeness of the ocean, etc. oh there is one minor distraction i should mention... where you have the constant mist which causes you and everything you hold dear to rust away, we have humidity which causes green mold to grow on everything, cars, guns, sides of buildings, you if you veg outside too long!

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  16. #16
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Ditch Costco and patronize Sam's Club.

    For example, there are nine Costcos in UT, from Provo to north of SLC. Eight Sam's Clubs in approximate locations.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ure-gun-in-car

    Sam's Club follows state law.
    Heh heh heh. None close by in WV. In Va, where I could carry the only one near me is a Costco. The only Sams anywhere close is in MD.
    I'm doomed not to shop at the clubs.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Did you just say that you will help an anti gun business that supports left wing politicians and has a no guns policy make a profit because of the benefits you gain by shopping there?

    Isn't a business that supports left wing politicians.... taking an active role in attacking the RKBA?
    Depends on how you define "active role".

    Is a business taking any less of an active role if it donates money to left wing politicians while not having an (unenforced) policy against private guns?

    Do you boycott every business that donates to any politicians who vote the wrong way on guns? Do you take the time to check donation records to know which businesses need to be boycotted?

    Do you boycott businesses that have victim disarmament policies for their employees? Or is it ok to patronize a business as long as your rights are intact?

    One might also look at the non-RKBA policies of a given business. What of the fellow who really supports Costco's policy of paying higher wages than does Walmart/Sam's Club, providing better educational benefits, etc? Or the fellow who hate's Levi's and Disney's anti-gun policies but really likes their policies on homosexuality? Maybe I don't care for Ford's anti-gun policies, but I really like the fact they didn't take bailout money. Or I really like the fact that Toyota is building a plant in a right-to-work State. Maybe I really dislike Chick-fil-a's anti-gun employment policy, but I really like that their founder/owner supports the proper definition of marriage.

    I can respect that others draw their lines in different places about which businesses to patronize and which to boycott. Twenty-five years ago I was prone to join every boycott of every business that was at all anti-gun. I've since realized that almost every business is anti-gun to one degree another (starting with employment policies). And with a limited number of hours in a day and days in a year, and a limited amount of cash in my pocket, I'm not going to waste time or money trying to boycott every business that has some policy or practice (regarding RKBA or anything else) I disagree with. I have to set thresholds. And if you look objectively and honestly, so do you. Our thresholds are in different places. That doesn't make either of us a traitor to the cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME

    Sam's Club follows state law.
    So does Costco. It is perfectly legal in Utah for Costco to have a no-gun policy. It is also perfectly legal for me to ignore it.

    To each their own, but I've found Costco to better meet my needs.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 06-04-2015 at 12:30 AM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Thank you for explaining your.... logic ... for supporting a business that bans guns and supports left wing politicians utbagpiper. I understand how some folks adjust their support for the RKBA according to their personal wants.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 06-04-2015 at 07:43 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Depends on how you define "active role". ...
    I too, do not check every aspect of a business owner's political leanings, or how they run their business. If they choose to exclude me from their property simply for the visible firearm on my belt I will honor their wishes and not patronize their business.

    So does Costco. It is perfectly legal in Utah for Costco to have a no-gun policy. It is also perfectly legal for me to ignore it.

    To each their own, but I've found Costco to better meet my needs.

    Charles
    I am not surprised that you ignore a property owner's wishes as to how he controls his property.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    svg, not sure why walmart does not seem to be as prolific in the PNW and wondering if fred's stores are the reason. i peeked and tacoma has one and seattle area has five wally worlds while the burg i live in in rural religious eastern NC has three within a twenty mile range plus they are building a mini so it will make it four PLUS a sam's. interestingly, each have different cultural groceries so it is quite pleasant to shop.

    idea svg, come move to rural religious eastern NC so you have the best of all worlds...sam's, unfettered OC'g, beautiful scoot riding area, still got the closeness of the ocean, etc. oh there is one minor distraction i should mention... where you have the constant mist which causes you and everything you hold dear to rust away, we have humidity which causes green mold to grow on everything, cars, guns, sides of buildings, you if you veg outside too long!

    ipse
    I heard there is some good surf there too!

    Tempting tempting....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Thank you for explaining your.... logic ... for supporting a business that bans guns and supports left wing politicians utbagpiper. I understand how some folks adjust their support for the RKBA according to their personal wants.
    logic or rationalization?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Seems there are three in WA; Near Auburn of of I-405 and WA-18, Renton off I-405, and on Aurora Ave. N. in Lake Forest Park (between Sheridan Beach, The Highlands and North City.
    All a couple hrs away. If traffic is bad even longer.

    I go to Sams when in Hawaii, they have been great help to my families various business's over the years.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Kopis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I've been to Miller Park in Milwaukee (and a couple of other minor and major league stadiums) a few times. They don't even wand people coming into the stadium but have one of those magical signs out front.
    It's a force field don't ya know???

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Originally Posted by Bikenut

    Thank you for explaining your.... logic ... for supporting a business that bans guns and supports left wing politicians utbagpiper. I understand how some folks adjust their support for the RKBA according to their personal wants.
    logic or rationalization?
    I say tomAHto....You say tomAto... ...
    Last edited by Bikenut; 06-04-2015 at 10:07 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I too, do not check every aspect of a business owner's political leanings, or how they run their business.
    So you draw your line at a business making their views on guns known or applying those views to you as a customer. You're fine doing business with those who disarm their employees it seems.

    You're not on pure enough ground to presume to look down your nose at me because I draw my line in a slightly different place than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If they choose to exclude me from their property simply for the visible firearm on my belt I will honor their wishes and not patronize their business.
    A fine choice. I may honor his wishes by keeping my firearm legally out-of-sight.


    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I am not surprised that you ignore a property owner's wishes as to how he controls his property.
    I'm just not libertarian enough to believe a business should be permitted to chain their fire doors shut or disable fire sprinkler systems.

    So long as a business owner cannot deny services based on race, religion, gender, disability, sexual orientation, etc, I don't see any virtue in denying myself service based on an unenforced policy. If they make an active effort to enforce, I will have no choice but to look elsewhere to meet my needs or go unarmed while shopping there.

    Now, if a homeowner or church doesn't want guns in their residence or sanctuary, I will fully comply one way or another. A man's home is his castle and I do my level best to respect holy ground (mine and others). It also turns out that in Utah, these two locations' private gun bans do enjoy force of law. And I comply with the law.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 06-04-2015 at 09:11 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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