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It never ceases to amaze me... Take me out to the ball game...

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
With all the strong pro-2A responses these types of articles receive, it never ceases to amaze me the frequency at which they just keep coming. It's as if people like Mike Axisa, Baseball Writer, have never seen any debate on the idiocy of so-called "gun-free" zones.

True, if a ballpark really could screen patrons and prevent them from carrying all manner of firearms, knives, clubs, boots, feet, fists, pencils, pens (you get my drift), then there would be no reason to carry into such a gun-free zones. Short of mass amputation, however, we humans will always have a need to defend ourselves.

Even though it's mind-boggling that articles like this just keep coming, I see it for the opportunity that it is to educate young Mike and his readers about the fallacy of gun-free zones and our inalienable rights as U.S. citizens.

I hope you'll join me in responding to people like Mike and others whose educations remain incomplete.

Carry on!
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I've been to Miller Park in Milwaukee (and a couple of other minor and major league stadiums) a few times. They don't even wand people coming into the stadium but have one of those magical signs out front.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
...
True, if a ballpark really could screen patrons and prevent them from carrying all manner of firearms, knives, clubs, boots, feet, fists, pencils, pens (you get my drift), then there would be no reason to carry into such a gun-free zones. Short of mass amputation, however, we humans will always have a need to defend ourselves.
....

I know where you are coming from, but even if the ball park could assure a safe, crime free environment within its "security" perimeter, attendees are going to be disarmed from the time they leave home to go to the park until such time as they return home.

This realization is why I believe that the very rare venue (all ball parks are not one of them) where guns are properly disallowed need to be required to provide appropriate storage for visitors' firearms. That way I can check my gun as I enter the truly secure area, and retrieve it immediately upon leaving.

If a commercial venue is so opposed to my firearms as to actively prevent me from carrying (as opposed to an unenforced policy or request not to carry), then they probably don't need my business.

Charles
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I know where you are coming from, but even if the ball park could assure a safe, crime free environment within its "security" perimeter, attendees are going to be disarmed from the time they leave home to go to the park until such time as they return home.

This realization is why I believe that the very rare venue (all ball parks are not one of them) where guns are properly disallowed need to be required to provide appropriate storage for visitors' firearms. That way I can check my gun as I enter the truly secure area, and retrieve it immediately upon leaving.

If a commercial venue is so opposed to my firearms as to actively prevent me from carrying (as opposed to an unenforced policy or request not to carry), then they probably don't need my business.

Charles

Kind of like Costco?

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...ans-Firearms&p=2145591&viewfull=1#post2145591
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I know where you are coming from, but even if the ball park could assure a safe, crime free environment within its "security" perimeter, attendees are going to be disarmed from the time they leave home to go to the park until such time as they return home.

This realization is why I believe that the very rare venue (all ball parks are not one of them) where guns are properly disallowed need to be required to provide appropriate storage for visitors' firearms. That way I can check my gun as I enter the truly secure area, and retrieve it immediately upon leaving.

If a commercial venue is so opposed to my firearms as to actively prevent me from carrying (as opposed to an unenforced policy or request not to carry), then they probably don't need my business.

Charles

Agreed. The local hospitals are one location where do just that, meaning they have a place to store firearms. All bags are searched, everyone is wanded, and there's a metal detector. Right then and there, however, you can pass your holstered firearm to security behind the counter, and they lock it in a locker and hand you the key.

The problem is, that's just the ER. One can bring concealed firearms into the hospital proper, and during normal hours, there's nothing preventing someone from walking from the main hospital into the ER. So...
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Kind of like Costco?

Let me know if you need any help understanding:

utbagpiper said:
...for me, the benefits of Costco membership are too large to forego over a Corporate policy that has gone no further to actively attack my RKBA than to have an unenforced "no gun" policy in their stores and to support left wing politicians ... I believe the time and money I save shopping at Costco for the items they carry can be better applied to advancing RKBA than would be any benefit of denying Costco that money and spending more time and more money buying those items at other locations.

Should Costco move to using their profits to actively attack my RKBA, I would have to re-evaluate my calculations on this one.

[emphasis added]
 

utbagpiper

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Messages
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Utah
Agreed. The local hospitals are one location where do just that, meaning they have a place to store firearms. All bags are searched, everyone is wanded, and there's a metal detector. Right then and there, however, you can pass your holstered firearm to security behind the counter, and they lock it in a locker and hand you the key.

Some 30 years ago while living in Arizona the law allowed stores to ban guns only if they provided storage. So for a fairly brief season, a couple of grocery stores did just that. You could check your gun and they'd put it in the safe and then you'd retrieve it on your way out. No metal detectors or real security. Just the honor system for those who CC'd. Those who OC'd were a bit easier to spot and I checked my gun a couple of times before moving on to a store that didn't bother. A short time later, most stores dropped the policy as a hassle. I'm not sure whether that law remains or was modified or repealed.

But at least a person wasn't disarmed from the time he left home (or his car). If a location wants/needs to ban guns I think real security (metal detectors, armed guards) and storage are the minimum that ought to be in place. Doubly so for any government facility.

The problem is, that's just the ER. One can bring concealed firearms into the hospital proper, and during normal hours, there's nothing preventing someone from walking from the main hospital into the ER. So...

ERs tend to have a lot of people at their worst, including rival gang members. Of course, with the open back door, I suppose anything short of an actual emergency, I'd accidentally tend to use the main doors when available. I might even stop by the security post and check my OC'd firearm if anyone noticed it. Short of having to be wanded, odds are nobody is going to notice my BUG. :)

Charles
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
It's a security concern because the guy carrying the gun didn't do anything with it, but rather it remained properly holstered during his entire visit to the park? Some people don't think very well.
 
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Bikenut

Guest
Let me know if you need any help understanding:
Originally Posted by utbagpiper
...for me, the benefits of Costco membership are too large to forego over a Corporate policy that has gone no further to actively attack my RKBA than to have an unenforced "no gun" policy in their stores and to support left wing politicians ... I believe the time and money I save shopping at Costco for the items they carry can be better applied to advancing RKBA than would be any benefit of denying Costco that money and spending more time and more money buying those items at other locations.

Should Costco move to using their profits to actively attack my RKBA, I would have to re-evaluate my calculations on this one.



[emphasis added]
Did you just say that you will help an anti gun business that supports left wing politicians and has a no guns policy make a profit because of the benefits you gain by shopping there?

Isn't a business that supports left wing politicians.... taking an active role in attacking the RKBA?

Are you are saying it's Ok to help an anti gun business make a profit with the reasoning that the time and money saved supporting an anti gun business being spent on fighting for the right to keep and bear arms makes it Ok to ................. support an anti gun business that supports left wing politicians that fight against the RKBA?

Perhaps you could help me ... understand... the logic behind how saving time and money supporting a business that is actively fighting against the RKBA is justified because the time and money saved is spent fighting for the RKBA? Isn't that a bit like rowing a boat with one oar?
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County

OC for ME

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White Oak Plantation

solus

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Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
Agreed. The local hospitals are one location where do just that, meaning they have a place to store firearms. All bags are searched, everyone is wanded, and there's a metal detector. Right then and there, however, you can pass your holstered firearm to security behind the counter, and they lock it in a locker and hand you the key.

The problem is, that's just the ER. One can bring concealed firearms into the hospital proper, and during normal hours, there's nothing preventing someone from walking from the main hospital into the ER. So...

the NC hospitals are signed, and most ERs are metal detector protected. additionally, the 'teaching' hospitals and their parking lots are tied to universities and therefore considered under the purview of the no firearms on educational statutes.

i, as i am sure the other firearm carriers in NC, would love to have the legal accommodation of having a storage location at facilities e.g., hospitals, judicial, etc., instead of having to leave our firearms at home or in the car, (in my safe notwithstanding)

ipse.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
svg, not sure why walmart does not seem to be as prolific in the PNW and wondering if fred's stores are the reason. i peeked and tacoma has one and seattle area has five wally worlds while the burg i live in in rural religious eastern NC has three within a twenty mile range plus they are building a mini so it will make it four PLUS a sam's. interestingly, each have different cultural groceries so it is quite pleasant to shop.

idea svg, come move to rural religious eastern NC so you have the best of all worlds...sam's, unfettered OC'g, beautiful scoot riding area, still got the closeness of the ocean, etc. oh there is one minor distraction i should mention... where you have the constant mist which causes you and everything you hold dear to rust away, we have humidity which causes green mold to grow on everything, cars, guns, sides of buildings, you if you veg outside too long!

ipse
 

twoskinsonemanns

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Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
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Location
WV

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Did you just say that you will help an anti gun business that supports left wing politicians and has a no guns policy make a profit because of the benefits you gain by shopping there?

Isn't a business that supports left wing politicians.... taking an active role in attacking the RKBA?

Depends on how you define "active role".

Is a business taking any less of an active role if it donates money to left wing politicians while not having an (unenforced) policy against private guns?

Do you boycott every business that donates to any politicians who vote the wrong way on guns? Do you take the time to check donation records to know which businesses need to be boycotted?

Do you boycott businesses that have victim disarmament policies for their employees? Or is it ok to patronize a business as long as your rights are intact?

One might also look at the non-RKBA policies of a given business. What of the fellow who really supports Costco's policy of paying higher wages than does Walmart/Sam's Club, providing better educational benefits, etc? Or the fellow who hate's Levi's and Disney's anti-gun policies but really likes their policies on homosexuality? Maybe I don't care for Ford's anti-gun policies, but I really like the fact they didn't take bailout money. Or I really like the fact that Toyota is building a plant in a right-to-work State. Maybe I really dislike Chick-fil-a's anti-gun employment policy, but I really like that their founder/owner supports the proper definition of marriage.

I can respect that others draw their lines in different places about which businesses to patronize and which to boycott. Twenty-five years ago I was prone to join every boycott of every business that was at all anti-gun. I've since realized that almost every business is anti-gun to one degree another (starting with employment policies). And with a limited number of hours in a day and days in a year, and a limited amount of cash in my pocket, I'm not going to waste time or money trying to boycott every business that has some policy or practice (regarding RKBA or anything else) I disagree with. I have to set thresholds. And if you look objectively and honestly, so do you. Our thresholds are in different places. That doesn't make either of us a traitor to the cause.

OC for ME said:
Sam's Club follows state law.

So does Costco. It is perfectly legal in Utah for Costco to have a no-gun policy. It is also perfectly legal for me to ignore it.

To each their own, but I've found Costco to better meet my needs.

Charles
 
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Bikenut

Guest
Thank you for explaining your.... logic ... for supporting a business that bans guns and supports left wing politicians utbagpiper. I understand how some folks adjust their support for the RKBA according to their personal wants.
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Depends on how you define "active role". ...
I too, do not check every aspect of a business owner's political leanings, or how they run their business. If they choose to exclude me from their property simply for the visible firearm on my belt I will honor their wishes and not patronize their business.

So does Costco. It is perfectly legal in Utah for Costco to have a no-gun policy. It is also perfectly legal for me to ignore it.

To each their own, but I've found Costco to better meet my needs.

Charles
I am not surprised that you ignore a property owner's wishes as to how he controls his property.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
svg, not sure why walmart does not seem to be as prolific in the PNW and wondering if fred's stores are the reason. i peeked and tacoma has one and seattle area has five wally worlds while the burg i live in in rural religious eastern NC has three within a twenty mile range plus they are building a mini so it will make it four PLUS a sam's. interestingly, each have different cultural groceries so it is quite pleasant to shop.

idea svg, come move to rural religious eastern NC so you have the best of all worlds...sam's, unfettered OC'g, beautiful scoot riding area, still got the closeness of the ocean, etc. oh there is one minor distraction i should mention... where you have the constant mist which causes you and everything you hold dear to rust away, we have humidity which causes green mold to grow on everything, cars, guns, sides of buildings, you if you veg outside too long!

ipse

I heard there is some good surf there too!

Tempting tempting....
 
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