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Thread: Question About Concealed Carry Without a CPL

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    Regular Member Second Reality's Avatar
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    Question About Concealed Carry Without a CPL

    Could anyone clarify for me if its legal to conceal carry a firearm in an office setting where you have permission from the owner to do so while on their property without a CPL? The only verbage I could find on this particular issues is:

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

    Where section two states that place of business would be an exception. In this office environment I am management that is often left in charge of the location, should that make any difference.
    Last edited by Second Reality; 06-03-2015 at 01:35 PM.

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    Seems like place of business would be fine as they don't specifically say the owner or manager of the business like Maryland law says.

    That being said I think you guys have strict registration regs in MI so you may want to carry the registration as well.

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    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    Translation:

    Your dwelling house. Your place of business ("You" the owner). Other land (rent, leased, etc) possessed by "you."

    In other words, you can not carry a concealed pistol in or on property that does not belong to you regardless if you have permission from property owner(s), agent(s) of owner(s), etc, unless of course, you have a CPL.

    ETA: Stupid f'n Michigan laws. OK, I'm through.
    Last edited by SpringerXDacp; 06-03-2015 at 10:15 PM.

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    Regular Member Second Reality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    Translation:

    Your dwelling house. Your place of business ("You" the owner). Other land (rent, leased, etc) possessed by "you."

    In other words, you can not carry a concealed pistol in or on property that does not belong to you regardless if you have permission from property owner(s), agent(s) of owner(s), etc, unless of course, you have a CPL.

    ETA: Stupid f'n Michigan laws. OK, I'm through.
    Owning shares in the company would make me a shared owner of the business / property. Under the legal definition of place of business it is defined as: (VIA Cornell University Law School)

    "an office or other fixed place of business is a fixed facility, that is, a place, site, structure, or other similar facility, through which a ... corporation engages in a trade or business. For this purpose an office or other fixed place of business shall include, but shall not be limited to, a factory; a store or other sales outlet; a workshop; or a mine, quarry, or other place of extraction of natural resources. A fixed facility may be considered an office or other fixed place of business whether or not the facility ... "
    Last edited by Second Reality; 06-03-2015 at 11:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Second Reality View Post
    Owning shares in the company would make me a shared owner of the business / property. Under the legal definition of place of business it is defined as: (VIA Cornell University Law School)...
    If that turns out to be the case, lets add CC inside a local member-owned credit union (as long as you're a member).

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Owning shares does not make you an owner.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    SoringerXDacp nailed it in his closing lines above.

    Two words jump to mind when I think of the current setup in MI: Constitutional Carry! It is sorely needed there.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    Translation:

    Your dwelling house. Your place of business ("You" the owner). Other land (rent, leased, etc) possessed by "you."

    In other words, you can not carry a concealed pistol in or on property that does not belong to you regardless if you have permission from property owner(s), agent(s) of owner(s), etc, unless of course, you have a CPL.

    I'm sure you have a citation to any court case supporting that Translation? Would you mind very much posting it for all of us?

    See, were it me, I'd point people to Miller v State (Georgia)

    Miller v. State, 12 Ga. App. 479 (1913)
    (Syllabus by the Court)

    Error from City Court of Elberton; Geo. C. Grogan, Judge.
    James Miller was convicted of carrying weapons, and brings error. Reversed.

    J. T. Sisk and W. A. Nall, both of Elberton, for plaintiff in error.
    Boozer Payne, Sol., of Elberton, for the State.

    RUSSELL, J.
    It appears, from the evidence, that the accused was a wages hand, employed as a farm laborer, whose duty was to work on any portion of the employer's plantation where he was directed to labor, and that he was required to eat his meals at the employer's residence on the plantation; and the evidence does not disclose that he carried the pistol at any other place than the part of the plantation between his employer's residence and the house occupied by himself and his wife, which also was upon the plantation.

    Held that, under these facts, the house of the employer and the space between it and the house occupied by the accused upon the plantation are included, as to the accused, within the term "place of business," within the meaning of the act of 1910 as to carrying a pistol without a license (Acts 1910, p. 134). Coker v. State, 12 Ga. App. 425, 76 S. E. 103, 991.
    Judgment reversed.


    Translation: where you work is your place of business (at least in Georgia... and since Georgia was the defendant it probably means the Circuit Court of Appeals with jurisdiction over Georgia.)
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-11-2015 at 01:17 AM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question About Concealed Carry Without a CPL

    Hum? Georgia is part of the 6th Federal circuit now? Man things have changed since I left MI? Just razzing
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 06-11-2015 at 01:13 AM.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Well, we didn't used to be, until.....


    I'm merely asking to read a court case defining what "place of business" is in MI.

    I'm not saying that it's binding, merely that it's at the very least persuasive without a differing opinion. That whole thing about how our court systems are founded on the belief that there should be fairness, consistency, and predictability in judicial decision making (stare decisis.)
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-11-2015 at 01:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I'm sure you have a citation to any court case supporting that Translation? Would you mind very much posting it for all of us?

    See, were it me, I'd point people to Miller v State (Georgia)

    Miller v. State, 12 Ga. App. 479 (1913)
    (Syllabus by the Court)
    Error from City Court of Elberton; Geo. C. Grogan, Judge.
    James Miller was convicted of carrying weapons, and brings error. Reversed.

    J. T. Sisk and W. A. Nall, both of Elberton, for plaintiff in error.
    Boozer Payne, Sol., of Elberton, for the State.

    RUSSELL, J.
    It appears, from the evidence, that the accused was a wages hand, employed as a farm laborer, whose duty was to work on any portion of the employer's plantation where he was directed to labor, and that he was required to eat his meals at the employer's residence on the plantation; and the evidence does not disclose that he carried the pistol at any other place than the part of the plantation between his employer's residence and the house occupied by himself and his wife, which also was upon the plantation.

    Held that, under these facts, the house of the employer and the space between it and the house occupied by the accused upon the plantation are included, as to the accused, within the term "place of business," within the meaning of the act of 1910 as to carrying a pistol without a license (Acts 1910, p. 134). Coker v. State, 12 Ga. App. 425, 76 S. E. 103, 991.
    Judgment reversed.


    Translation: where you work is your place of business (at least in Georgia... and since Georgia was the defendant it probably means the Circuit Court of Appeals with jurisdiction over Georgia.)
    ...except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, ....
    Clearly, the exceptions of the law is to include a business possessed by the person, not just a business where an individual works possessed/owned by someone else. There's an MCL which describes the statutory interpretation in such cases as this but I don't remember the section. It has been posted here in the past many times. Perhaps someone will remember and post it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Clearly, the exceptions of the law is to include a business possessed by the person, not just a business where an individual works possessed/owned by someone else. There's an MCL which describes the statutory interpretation in such cases as this but I don't remember the section. It has been posted here in the past many times. Perhaps someone will remember and post it.
    You'd kinda think they'd say "business owner" instead of "place of business" as surely they are familiar with all the words used and the distinction between "owner" and "place".
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-11-2015 at 03:21 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    The phrases "place of business" and "established place of business" exist in multiple paces in regards to Mich. law.
    But I rather doubt you'll like the way they're used.

    Still, it's always possible that "place of business" is used the same way in a dozen different places and code sections then defined another way in another.

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