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Should you be excused for not knowing what the law is?

skidmark

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http://allenbwest.com/2015/05/will-...arine-rot-in-jail-just-because-he-owns-a-gun/

That URL is rather misleading when describing what happened. Guy from NC goes to NJ. Does not check to see if his NC CHP is any good in NJ. Then gets involved in a road rage incident with a guy who may (based on the clothing he is wearing) be a gangbanger. Guy first displays his pistol, then later retrieves his rifle from his vehicle and displays that.

Besides not checking to see if he could bring a gun to NJ (apparently all the incidents of folks getting arrested for doing that are not making the rounds to all/most gun owners) he displays a pistol and then, while he is outside his vehicle, retrieves a rifle and displays that. I am not positive but it seems there was at least one opportunity for him to just drive away.

I'm putting this in General Discussion instead of NJ because of several issues I think apply to everybody:
- obviously, know the law. It ca be a PITA to find it but part of being a LAC is knowing what you have to do/not do in order to be law-abiding.
- generally, displaying your firearm is not a great idea. The old saying "If you pull it shoot it" is worth considering. I understand that puts a person way behind in the action/reaction curve but many times that is just something we need to live with.
- "Never leave the boat." Well, OK, if your "boat" is being riddled with gunfire it might be OK. But unless there is information we are not being given it seems this guy had at least one opportunity to just drive away.
- Remember, the first person to call the cops is identified as "victim". Hand your phone to the passenger (if you have one) and tell them to dial 911 and report the incident. You may have to break the law against using a cellphone while driving and talk to the police yourself. But it's far better to be listed as "victim" than Perp #1 .

As someone once told me, "your brain is there to do more than keep your ears apart."

stay safe.
 

nonameisgood

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All very good points.

Texas once had laws which differentiated "threat of deadly force" from "use of deadly force", and there were conditions where you could threaten but not use deadly force. This was probably a very bad idea, but it reflects this guy's likely thinking. "If I show him a gun, he might leave me alone." But I would postulate that this action is just as likely to escalate the situation rather than diffuse it.

And who doesn't know NJ has very restrictive gun laws? I think every Texas knows that (whether it is true of not.)
 

skidmark

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And who doesn't know NJ has very restrictive gun laws?

At least 3 people. And 4 if you count the NJ guy who put his guns in the trunk and stopped off to see momma?/grandma? on the way from his old place of residence to his new place of residence.

stay safe.
 

Wild Dog

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We should be absolutely excused for not knowing what the law is. After all, the cops and lawyers don't know what every law is on the books, how can joe and jane public be expected to know more than them.
 

Grapeshot

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We should be absolutely excused for not knowing what the law is. After all, the cops and lawyers don't know what every law is on the books, how can joe and jane public be expected to know more than them.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

"The rationale of this maxim is that if ignorance of law was an excuse then any person charged with a criminal offense or subject of a civil suit can claim that he or she was unaware of the law in question and avoid liability."
http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/ignorance-of-law/
 

skidmark

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We should be absolutely excused for not knowing what the law is. After all, the cops and lawyers don't know what every law is on the books, how can joe and jane public be expected to know more than them.

Do what you feel like when you feel like it where you feel like it because it's too much trouble to look up at least the basic laws? What kind of self-responsibility is that?

Cops are excused because, among other reasons, they are only held responsible for what their department trains/educates them When the department fails to train/educate on established law the department is held liable and pays compensation with taxpayer dollars. Responder superior.

Then the courts have decided that if the ignorance causes minimum harm (whatever that might be) the cops can get away with it because thy were acting "in good faith".

IMHO the guy would not have been busted for illegal possession of guns if he had not started beating his chest and displaying his guns. Even though there may not be a legal obligation to disengage and retreat, there is much to suggest it as a tactic unless you are actually in what you consider imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. Again IMHO a guy getting out of his car and waving his hands about while mouthing off is not being in imminent danger. YMMV.

stay safe.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

"The rationale of this maxim is that if ignorance of law was an excuse then any person charged with a criminal offense or subject of a civil suit can claim that he or she was unaware of the law in question and avoid liability."
http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/ignorance-of-law/

If I recollect right. This ignorance was not to be applied to positive law but to mal en se, laws against natures law.
 

Werz

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If I recollect right. This ignorance was not to be applied to positive law but to mal en se, laws against natures law.
The original observations about the maxim ignorantia juris non excusat, as related by Cicero and Plato, generally referred to matters which were malum in se. However, the law also tends to presume that anyone handling a dangerous instrumentality - like a gun or a car - should be familiar with the related law.
 

JamesCanby

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Those of us who keep and bear arms have the responsibility to know the laws of the locale (city, county and state) in which we do so. While that may not be as much of a problem for Texans or Alaskans (where one can drive for days without leaving the state) it is also important to know how the laws differ from your home state. From where I live in Virginia, I can be in any one of several different states in less than two hours (and in DC or Maryland inside of 15 minutes). Have I studied and know the firearms laws of MD, DC, WV, PA and NC? You bet your sweet azz I do!

Not only must legal carriers know the law to stay OUT of trouble, they must also know the law to know when the LEO is wrong and tries to "suggest" compliance with HIS understanding of the law.
 

sudden valley gunner

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The original observations about the maxim ignorantia juris non excusat, as related by Cicero and Plato, generally referred to matters which were malum in se. However, the law also tends to presume that anyone handling a dangerous instrumentality - like a gun or a car - should be familiar with the related law.

Oh thats understandable. Driving unsafely would be against natural law. Makes sense. It still would reside in the proper negative realm.

If I remember correctly it was statist like Bentham who pushed for positive ignorance is no excuse. Which is contrary to natural law. If a town makes wearing a blue shirt punishable by life in prison and I happen to enter said town unaware of law. Claiming ignorance of said positive law is no excuse would be immoral and repugnant.
 

Citizen

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Oh thats understandable. Driving unsafely would be against natural law. Makes sense. It still would reside in the proper negative realm.

If I remember correctly it was statist like Bentham who pushed for positive ignorance is no excuse. Which is contrary to natural law. If a town makes wearing a blue shirt punishable by life in prison and I happen to enter said town unaware of law. Claiming ignorance of said positive law is no excuse would be immoral and repugnant.

+1

And, it can be taken further: when government deceives or omits.

Remember several years ago where we discussed here briefly the case of the teen arrested for denying police access to his home?

The story was something like teen throwing a party (while mom and dad gone?). Rowdy boys got to yelling. Neighbor called police, reporting a fight or something. Cops show up, demand access to check if anybody hurt in reported fight (under the community caretaking exception). Teen--who knows nobody's hurt because nobody's been fighting--blocks front door with his body, refusing police access without a warrant. Cops drag him to front yard, arrest him for obstruction, sweep the house for injured. Charges later dropped.

C'mon. We're all taught in school that police need a warrant to search a home. But, it turns out they don't. There's a number of exceptions to the warrant clause that permit police warrantless entry into a private home. Exercise what the government school taught you were your rights, and you end up with an arrest on your record that you have to disclose on every job application for the rest of your life.

Separately, James Madison wrote in Federalist #62: "It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood." (emphasis by Citizen)

Of course, the real problem is the desire or willingness to coerce peaceful others. You can't make the power to coerce effective unless you create another lie (ignorance is no excuse) to close the loopholes inherent in the first lie. First you have to lie to yourself (or others) that it is legitimate to coerce people. Then, to prevent some of them escaping from your coercion, you have to create the lie that ignorance is no excuse.
 

Citizen

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AZ: The community caretaking exception does not apply to homes
Posted on June 5, 2015 by Hall http://fourthamendment.com/?p=17575

The community caretaking exception does not apply to homes, citing conflicting authorities. Here, defendant was believed by the police to have an excessive amount of mercury in his house, something not contraband. A firefighter trained in hazardous materials entered the house to look for it and found a small quantity of marijuana, and defendant was charged with that. The entry was unlawful. State v. Wilson, 2015 Ariz. LEXIS 188 (June 3, 2015), lower court op. 235 Ariz. 447, 333 P.3d 774 (App. 2014): [Emphasis mine. More ... long]

I saw the same.

I don't know how far reaching this will be.

For example, police can already go to a home on a 911 hang-up call, and look in the windows. Or, say, late at night, if they see a front door ajar, they can enter to see if there is a burglary or some such.

Of course, its all smoke-and-mirrors because the real question isn't whether it was legal for police to enter, but whether the crime evidence they then found was admissible. All SCOTUS had to do was say police could enter, but evidence of other offenses could not be used in court. This would allow police to help people, but also still protect the 4A and the warrant requirement.

For example, if police are called by a neighbor hearing a child screaming in pain, the police could look in the windows and see the child trapped under a bureau, and enter to save the child. Evidence of child abuse/neglect could be admissible (or not), but momma's bong on the table the police walked past would not be admissible.

Heck, SCOTUS has been splitting these hairs for so long, they could have easily spent the same amount of time sorting out what to do with that illegal bong. For example, seize it as contraband and dispose of it without being able to charge momma. In these intervening years SCOTUS could have split the hairs even finer by saying the bong could be used as evidence of child abuse/neglect, but the bong was not a chargeable offense because its presence was discovered during a warrantless entry. All that rather than looking for ways to bash loopholes in the Fourth Amendment.
 
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Grapeshot

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-snipped--
Exercise what the government school taught you were your rights, and you end up with an arrest on your record that you have to disclose on every job application for the rest of your life.

I believe that it is improper to ask or require information about arrests - convictions not so much. OTOH I have not delved into this recently.
 

Citizen

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I believe that it is improper to ask or require information about arrests - convictions not so much. OTOH I have not delved into this recently.

I would tend to agree; arrests vs convictions and all that. However, apparently some industries do ask. For example, banking.

The worst part is...well, let me frame it as a question. You're a busy personnel manager. You got ten applications in front of you. One of them has an arrest. Are you going to spend any time digging into that application when you got nine others that don't?

The problem is less whether its proper to ask--the private market employer is free to be as smart or dumb as he wants, and suffer the consequences. The bigger problem is law enforcement officer vs peace officer. And, a vast sea of malum pro se laws.
 

skidmark

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I believe that it is improper to ask or require information about arrests - convictions not so much. OTOH I have not delved into this recently.

Prospective employer can ask about convictions. Arrests are off limits because they are not probative of mis- or malfeasance or moral turpitude. And as we all know, the prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

stay safe.
 

Citizen

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Prospective employer can ask about convictions. Arrests are off limits because they are not probative of mis- or malfeasance or moral turpitude. And as we all know, the prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

stay safe.

Are you saying asking about arrests is illegal?
 

Citizen

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Pre-Employment Inquiries and Arrest & Conviction

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/inquiries_arrest_conviction.cfm


Federal and Virginia law place some limits on employer use of criminal records.


http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/virginia-laws-employer-use-arrest-conviction-records.html

Thank you.

Those are...slight, very slight...good news.

So, according to the EEOC website, if I have two applicants with arrests or convictions, I may not make my decision based on who has fewer arrests or convictions. But, if I am the personnel manager and have two applicants of which one has an arrest or conviction, I may discriminate against that one.

Under VA state law, I could omit to list an expunged arrest, and--it seems--could not legally be fired if that expunged arrest is later discovered. Of course, I'd have to sue my employer: a wonderful action for maintaining harmony with the executives and supervisors.

Of course, how the employee or applicant of a small company (or even a large one) is supposed to establish he was discriminated against on the basis of his arrest or conviction is another question. All I will know is that I didn't get hired. I could spend thousands of dollars in discovery legal fees only to find out the other applicant was just enough qualified to make the issue less than clear.

Thus, very slight good news. It seems as though I might win a lawsuit if my employer fired me for omitting to disclose an expunged conviction on my job application. Assuming my employer was dumb enough to give that as the reason instead of some other plausible reason in VA which is an at-will state.
 
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OC for ME

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Should we be excused? Yes. Will we be excused, likely not. Unless you are a cop...of course.

These days, a cop can destroy your life and then be excused for all of the carnage he wrought in your life, because he had a slight misunderstanding of the law that he thought granted him the authority to intiate first contact with the soone to be savaged citizen. Then, we are then told, by the state, to take the check, if we get one, and be satisfied. Because money will bring back the dead, heal the mangled bodies, and bring rain to drought ridden Kaliforistan.

Eliminate QI and all exemptions in the laws that cops enjoy.
 

utbagpiper

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Thank you.

Those are...slight, very slight...good news.

Good news for whom? Do these laws not infringe the right of employers to conduct their business as they see fit?

From an anarchist/libertarian perspective why shouldn't an employer be perfectly free to discriminate based on arrests, hair color, eye color, political affiliation, or any other trait he wants to? It is his business after all and so long as he isn't infringing anyone else's rights, why can't he have whatever hiring and firing practices he desires?

Charles
 
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