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Thread: OC encounter

  1. #1
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    OC encounter

    Hi all. Thanks for letting me join. This forum is VERY interesting and INFORMATIVE. I would like to share an Open Carry encounter I experienced a few weeks back. I am a Law Enforcement Officer, out of retirement, to help a small community 20 miles away. After being hired and after my orientation, I was a tcity hall filing some papers. A young man walked in the front door, OC, and went straight in the mayors office. The police chief was with me and called the man by name. I looked quizzically at the chief and he said "What? Louisiana is an open carry state. I said "Yeah, but the mayors office?" He said "He carries, too." I asked the chief is there anything I need to know special about open carry in the local area? The chief looked at the ceiling, tapped his chin a moment, then said "Yeah, make sure they are 17 or older." then walked away.

    Two nights later, while fueling up my police cruiser, an elderly man pulled up next to me and started fueling his OLD, battered pickup. He was open carrying what looked like an old, well worn, but neat AND clean, Army Peacemaker, in a leather holster, tied to his leg, and a thong over the hammer. I nodded to him, looked down at his weapon, then back at his eyes and said "Excuse me, sir, I need to ask you a question?" He kinda squinted his eyes, crossed his arms, and with a slight nod of his head said go ahead.

    "Are you over seventeen years of age?" I said.

    His eyes opened. His mouth dropped open. Then he started laughing, then laughing REAL hard.

    He said "Son, You've just made my day. I've got socks older than you." (I'm 62) He is 71.

    We talked awhile. He showed me his weapon. It WAS a Colt .45, single shot, that his grand-father had given his daddy, who had given it to him. I didn't tell him it didn't look old enough to have been used in the Civil War, but he said his grandaddy was with Gen. Beauregard. (His grandaddy probably was, but I don't think the pistol was.

    We had a nice visit, and he went on his way. Not all LEO are narrow minded. Most younger ones seem to be out to prove something. In 14 years in Louisiana, I have never had to pull my weapon out of it's holster.

    PLEASE don't group all LEO into one boot stomping Gestapo group. I hate my ALL black tactical uniform and am trying to see the powers that be that police (Peace) officers do not have to look threatening or menacing to get the job done. But the younger (under 35) seem to want that tactical MEAN look.

    So, if you come to my area and I stop you. It's not because I have nothing better to do and just want to hassle you. It's because you have broken one of our rules (regardless of how puny). Besides, if you think I like to get out of my Air Conditioned car, into this Louisiana summer sun, in this awful BLACK uniform, you got another think coming.

    Y'all be cool, now, and come visit.

  2. #2
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MV10 View Post
    Hi all. Thanks for letting me join. This forum is VERY interesting and INFORMATIVE. I would like to share an Open Carry encounter I experienced a few weeks back. I am a Law Enforcement Officer, out of retirement, to help a small community 20 miles away. After being hired and after my orientation, I was a tcity hall filing some papers. A young man walked in the front door, OC, and went straight in the mayors office. The police chief was with me and called the man by name. I looked quizzically at the chief and he said "What? Louisiana is an open carry state. I said "Yeah, but the mayors office?" He said "He carries, too." I asked the chief is there anything I need to know special about open carry in the local area? The chief looked at the ceiling, tapped his chin a moment, then said "Yeah, make sure they are 17 or older." then walked away.

    Two nights later, while fueling up my police cruiser, an elderly man pulled up next to me and started fueling his OLD, battered pickup. He was open carrying what looked like an old, well worn, but neat AND clean, Army Peacemaker, in a leather holster, tied to his leg, and a thong over the hammer. I nodded to him, looked down at his weapon, then back at his eyes and said "Excuse me, sir, I need to ask you a question?" He kinda squinted his eyes, crossed his arms, and with a slight nod of his head said go ahead.

    "Are you over seventeen years of age?" I said.

    His eyes opened. His mouth dropped open. Then he started laughing, then laughing REAL hard.

    He said "Son, You've just made my day. I've got socks older than you." (I'm 62) He is 71.

    We talked awhile. He showed me his weapon. It WAS a Colt .45, single shot, that his grand-father had given his daddy, who had given it to him. I didn't tell him it didn't look old enough to have been used in the Civil War, but he said his grandaddy was with Gen. Beauregard. (His grandaddy probably was, but I don't think the pistol was.

    We had a nice visit, and he went on his way. Not all LEO are narrow minded. Most younger ones seem to be out to prove something. In 14 years in Louisiana, I have never had to pull my weapon out of it's holster.

    PLEASE don't group all LEO into one boot stomping Gestapo group. I hate my ALL black tactical uniform and am trying to see the powers that be that police (Peace) officers do not have to look threatening or menacing to get the job done. But the younger (under 35) seem to want that tactical MEAN look.

    So, if you come to my area and I stop you. It's not because I have nothing better to do and just want to hassle you. It's because you have broken one of our rules (regardless of how puny). Besides, if you think I like to get out of my Air Conditioned car, into this Louisiana summer sun, in this awful BLACK uniform, you got another think coming.

    Y'all be cool, now, and come visit.
    I simply love Loose-anna.

    No, I do not group all cops and my experiences here in Mizzoree is as you indicate. Even the "flat-bellies" are pretty laid back and reasonable...cept in the big city, not sure why that is.

    Welcome to OCDO and be safe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  3. #3
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Hello and Welcome! If you are anyone have any Open Carry questions, please check out the Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (LOCAL). We exist to inform people about Louisiana Laws and Open Carry issues.

    We LOVE good cops! In fact, the last few LOCAL Newsletters have had articles featuring officers that were invited to the meetings to get acquainted with us and so we can ask them questions that we have. Local sent out OC info to every police and Sheriff's office in the state giving them info that isn't common knowledge about OC not to show "we know more than you do" but to inform and save them and the public from issues and lawsuits. With camera phones and Social Media, people and Cops (who are people too ) are under a microscope and in the public eye and need to act as such. Bad people (and cops) exist. It happens. I have been called things I can't repeat here myself on a bad day or due to a simple misunderstanding. In short, like everyone else, we welcome you! Act a fool and people will let ya know their opinion about it. 100% equal opportunity here bud!
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

    "Stay safe..." - Paul "Skidmark" Henick, RIP

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    One small point about what MV10's chief told him to do.

    NO ONE has to demonstrate to an LEO that they are "not prohibited" (including what their age is.) It is the LEOs burden to have that evidence. To do otherwise is putting the cart before the horse. Stopping someone just to "check 'em out", to make sure everything is o.k., is an illegal seizure of that person; a violation of the 4th amendment. It's illegal. (Even though there is no criminal penalty attached to it.)

    What the Chief told MV10 to do is illegal; plain and simple.

    I don't mean to be pedantic, but I am a little miffed, as this is the problem OCers run into from time to time: LEOs wanting us to "explain" ourselves, for whatever reason; and thinking (or at least acting like) they have a right to demand, and we have an obligation to provide, an explanation. We don't. Lawful behavior, especially behavior which exercises a right, requires no explanation. If an LEO is not certain about an OCer being under age, then he doesn't have evidence of, or reason to believe, a crime is being committed. No stop; no demand for info. After all, the U.S. (and Louisiana) does not allow LEOs to stop people just because they have a "hunch", or because they "are not sure." If you do not know they are under 17, then you don't know! If you don't know, then you have nothing.

    Having said that, where in Louisiana is it lawful for a "non-peace officer" to walk into a municipal building armed (I am actually curious about that)? There might be not just reasonable suspicion, but probable cause, MV10!


    Carry On, Stay Free!!!

  5. #5
    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbiv View Post
    NO ONE has to demonstrate to an LEO that they are "not prohibited" (including what their age is.) It is the LEOs burden to have that evidence. To do otherwise is putting the cart before the horse. Stopping someone just to "check 'em out", to make sure everything is o.k., is an illegal seizure of that person; a violation of the 4th amendment. It's illegal. (Even though there is no criminal penalty attached to it.)

    What the Chief told MV10 to do is illegal; plain and simple.

    I don't mean to be pedantic, but I am a little miffed, as this is the problem OCers run into from time to time: LEOs wanting us to "explain" ourselves, for whatever reason; and thinking (or at least acting like) they have a right to demand, and we have an obligation to provide, an explanation. We don't. Lawful behavior, especially behavior which exercises a right, requires no explanation. If an LEO is not certain about an OCer being under age, then he doesn't have evidence of, or reason to believe, a crime is being committed. No stop; no demand for info. After all, the U.S. (and Louisiana) does not allow LEOs to stop people just because they have a "hunch", or because they "are not sure." If you do not know they are under 17, then you don't know! If you don't know, then you have nothing.

    Having said that, where in Louisiana is it lawful for a "non-peace officer" to walk into a municipal building armed (I am actually curious about that)? There might be not just reasonable suspicion, but probable cause, MV10!


    Carry On, Stay Free!!!
    So you are saying.. if an officer sees someone carrying a gun, and they look like they are probably 14 or 15… they have no obligation to check? If they think its a strong possibility the person is underage, I think thats reasonable suspicion a crime is being committed, and it should be investigated. Sadly this goes to the officers own judgement, and they can always claim someone younger looking may have been too young… if they just want to cover their butts and do whatever they want.

  6. #6
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    So you are saying.. if an officer sees someone carrying a gun, and they look like they are probably 14 or 15… they have no obligation to check? If they think its a strong possibility the person is underage, I think thats reasonable suspicion a crime is being committed, and it should be investigated. Sadly this goes to the officers own judgement, and they can always claim someone younger looking may have been too young… if they just want to cover their butts and do whatever they want.
    It is properly referred to as "RAS" or "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion" and if it isn't Reasonable or Articulable and Suspicious then any actions resulting from contact are tainted.
    Last edited by HeroHog; 06-08-2015 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Actionable <> Articulable
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

    "Stay safe..." - Paul "Skidmark" Henick, RIP

  7. #7
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjbiv View Post
    Having said that, where in Louisiana is it lawful for a "non-peace officer" to walk into a municipal building armed (I am actually curious about that)? There might be not just reasonable suspicion, but probable cause, MV10!
    Laws do not Grant rights, they Remove them. What you need to search for are restrictions on civilian carry in local Govt buildings (IIRC please check, I know I will).

    Survey says:
    R.S. 40:1379.3 (N) states that no concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit
    issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of
    the following:
    A law enforcement office, station, or building;
    A detention facility, prison, or jail;
    A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom;
    A polling place;
    A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision;
    The state capitol building;
     Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law,
    except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the
    firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage;
     Any church, synagogue, mosque or similar place of worship; See RS 40:1379.3 (U)
     A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity; (means be in the
    parade or part of the demonstration)
     Any school "firearm free zone" as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.
    NOTE: That says CONCEALED. If someone had the resources, it would be a good fight to OC in those areas barring some other law that simply says "guns" and doesn't specify "Concealed."
    Last edited by HeroHog; 06-07-2015 at 10:02 AM.
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

    "Stay safe..." - Paul "Skidmark" Henick, RIP

  8. #8
    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I miss VA because there we carried in the State Capitol building!

    Me being interviewed for the TV news after giving my two cents before the legislature with the VCDL who were there for "Lobby Day." Yes, I am armed in that shot.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    PS: When I Open Carried, I usually carried this in a horizontal shoulder holster.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is an AMT AutoMag III in 9mm Winchester Magnum (PS: that link <-- has a TON of cartridge charts in it ya will probably wanna check out)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by HeroHog; 06-07-2015 at 10:25 AM.
    Speedy: LOCAL League Sec/Treasurer, Information Officer
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

    "Stay safe..." - Paul "Skidmark" Henick, RIP

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    So you are saying.. if an officer sees someone carrying a gun, and they look like they are probably 14 or 15… they have no obligation to check? If they think its a strong possibility the person is underage, I think thats reasonable suspicion a crime is being committed, and it should be investigated. Sadly this goes to the officers own judgement, and they can always claim someone younger looking may have been too young… if they just want to cover their butts and do whatever they want.
    cjohnson44546, I am talking about a lawful stop and our obligation to provide information.

    If an OCer looks 14 then the LEO has reasonable suspicion to stop in an attempt to develop probable cause. Interestingly, here in Louisianan there are only 3 things one is required to tell an LEO if a Terry Stop is made. Age is NOT one of them.
    They are:
    1.) legal name
    2.) legal residence (your domicile, not your vacation home)
    3.) an explanation of one's activity.
    IF the LEO has reasonable suspicion to stop, and you do not answer these questions, you are committing a crime. If you don't answer those questions then the LEO has probable cause to arrest you for the crime of not answering these question. (I can't remember the Revised Statute off the top of my head and I'm not going to look it up. Maybe someone else will.)
    Remember, though, the LEO is suppose to have reasonable suspicion to make the stop in the first place; this is where the legal dispute usually arises.
    That's it. There is no requirement that one reveal one's age (I didn't write the law, I am just telling you what it is.) Thus if one is stopped on suspicion of being underage to posses a firearm, and does not offer proof of age (which you don't have to do in LA), the LEO is going to have to make a call on whether he/she has probable cause to make a lawful arrest.

    My point is this: we do not have to go around proving our age to every LEO that wants to make sure we are not underage. He/She has to somehow, lawfully, develop that evidence themselves (it may be through a consensual interrogation (question and answer) or a voluntary search (handing one's government issued ID to the LEO even when there is no duty to do so.) If they do not have the evidence, but they want to make the arrest anyway, they can roll the dice. If some 8 year old is walking around with a pistol, then it will probably be pretty easy to get it right; a 16 year old, maybe. Some 21 year olds look pretty young to me. Here's the jist: LEOs don't get to go around stopping all 17-25 year olds because they look like they might be under 17, and demanding proof of age.

    (I re-read my previous post and see where I could have been clearer. I do not suggest that an individual who appears, to the reasonable person, to be underage to lawfully posses a firearm does not create reasonable suspicion to believe a crime is being committed. I suppose I should have gone into greater detail in my previous post, but then again I try not to get too verbose. Long post tend to loose me, and I assume they affect others the same way.)

    I will concede the following: one could plausibly argue that if a person possessing a firearm is stopped under reasonable suspicion of being underage, then under the obligation of having to give the LEO an explanation of your activities, he/she could demand your age; and, therefore failing to give the age would be a violation of the law. But, that is a real s-t-r-e-t-c-h. I wouldn't want to be the cop or DA on that one, I'd want to be the defense attorney.

    Oh, bye the way, cjohnson44546, are you by any chance a fugitive from justice?
    Just checking.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    Laws do not Grant rights, they Remove them. What you need to search for are restrictions on civilian carry in local Govt buildings (IIRC please check, I know I will).

    Survey says:

    NOTE: That says CONCEALED. If someone had the resources, it would be a good fight to OC in those areas barring some other law that simply says "guns" and doesn't specify "Concealed."
    Yes, yes, I know well the rationale of which you write. I don't dispute it.
    Unless memory does me a great injustice, I am talking about the Revised Statute that allows political subdivisions to prohibit possession in their buildings. (Apparently our supreme court does not consider it a violation of Article 1, sec 11 for political subdivisions to "Remove" our rights in this way.) I am not sure which RS it is, but it may be the state preemption statute. Again, if memory serves correctly, I think political subdivisions are free to prohibit possession in their buildings. This is why I asked my question: I would be overjoyed, but incredibly surprised, if there are any villages, towns or cities that have not used their authority to prohibit possession in their municipal buildings.
    I do not know of any that have not exercised that authority to "remove" our rights in that way. I just wonder if anyone knows of any?


    p.s. I spend too much time on these boards.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    It is properly referred to as "RAS" or "Reasonable Actionable ARTICULATABLE Suspicion" and if it isn't Reasonable or Actionably ATRICULATABLE Suspicious then any actions resulting from contact are tainted.
    Cop's gotta be able to stand up in front of the trier of fact and explain why he was suspicious. Can't say he 'just had a hunch". Needs to lay out the facts - his education and training in the matter, his experience in the matter, and his knowledge and understanding of the laws related to the matter.

    It's not supposed to be a high hurdle but some cops just can't make their way over the bar.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Cop's gotta be able to stand up in front of the trier of fact and explain why he was suspicious. Can't say he 'just had a hunch". Needs to lay out the facts - his education and training in the matter, his experience in the matter, and his knowledge and understanding of the laws related to the matter.

    It's not supposed to be a high hurdle but some cops just can't make their way over the bar.

    stay safe.
    +1

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