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Thread: Need some VA gun law advice.

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Need some VA gun law advice.

    I have a friend that is planning a trip to VA. They are headed out in the morning (6/6/15) for a short visit. Can anyone give some 5 cent advice for their visit?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Bring money. OC is the default condition. If CCing check reciprocity. Read here: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  3. #3
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    "Carry in Restaurants That Serve Alcohol
    YES
    (There is no law stating it is illegal)
    Note:
    What is defined as carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol is a place like Friday’s
    ,
    Chili’s
    or Red
    Lobster. Handgunlaw.us bel
    ieves you should never consume alcohol when carrying your firearm. In some
    states it is illegal to take even one drink while carrying a firearm.
    In Virginia you are not allowed to consume
    by law."


    This last sentence here is not true. While you cannot legally consume alcohol while carrying concealed, you may do this while carrying openly. However, most frown upon this and advise against it for obvious reasons.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I have a friend that is planning a trip to VA. They are headed out in the morning (6/6/15) for a short visit. Can anyone give some 5 cent advice for their visit?
    So how was your friend's trip/visit?

    Hope they enjoyed the hospitality and freedom of the Commonwealth.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Because they can't handle having a beer with lunch or dinner while carrying a firearm?
    No, that's not even close. Because perception becomes reality, and the indisputable fact of the matter is that it serves no benefit to the RKBA community for others to observe a legal gun-carrier consuming alcohol. Those who are anti-gun will surely exploit such observations to promote their "no guns for anyone" agenda, and those who are agnostic and otherwise uninformed could be easily swayed toward the anti-gun perspective at the observation of what appears to be irresponsible behavior.

    Consider the consumption of alcohol in relation to driving. How much is too much? There are clearly defined, scientifically observable limits. Yet why is it against the law to consume ANY alcohol while driving? Are there any credible complaints about not being allowed to consume "reasonable" amounts of alcohol while driving? Carrying a gun is not the same as carrying a hammer. You not only have to be in total control of your motor skills to operate it properly, you must be in total control of your mental abilities to govern if/when to use it as well.

    This subject really is a no-brainer. Just because it's legal doesn't make it smart.

    TFred

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Because they can't handle having a beer with lunch or dinner while carrying a firearm?
    Because the term "under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs" has never been provided an objective measurement. DUI does not happen until you reach 0.08% BAC. Reckless handling of a firearm*, due to the lack of an objective measurement, could be charged at 0.01% BAC.

    It's that whole discretion vs valor thing. You may not want to spit into the wind or tug on Superman's cape even though there are no laws against doing so. If you do, just don't come back crying about what happened.

    stay safe.

    * - https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...+cod+18.2-56.1

    § 18.2-56.1. Reckless handling of firearms; reckless handling while hunting.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to handle recklessly any firearm so as to endanger the life, limb or property of any person. Any person violating this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    A1. Any person who handles any firearm in a manner so gross, wanton, and culpable as to show a reckless disregard for human life and causes the serious bodily injury of another person resulting in permanent and significant physical impairment is guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    and then it goes into special considerations while hunting, trapping, or pursuing game.

    Section A does not require that the life, limb or property of any person suffer an injury or harm - merely that it was endangered. Endangered is subjective.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  7. #7
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    No, that's not even close. ...

    This subject really is a no-brainer. Just because it's legal doesn't make it smart.

    TFred
    This notion that booze and firearms don't mix is just the absolutism thinking that the anti-liberty crowd wants we gun owners to burden ourselves with. skid is 100% correct, it is what you do with your gat that matters, not what you had to drink before you used your gat.

    Folks who carry this view of booze and guns need to work to get a law enacted that makes unlawful the consumption of adult beverages at home, where guns are possessed too. Of course, the state will need to know who has guns at home, and who drinks booze. Of course a LE exemption will need to be in the law. As well as a exemption for politicians and LE bureaucrats. Or, better yet, a special permit can be issued to those who wish to drink a brewski while packing heat. This would accomplish the who has guns and where the guns are part, part of the permit application process.

    yepper, it could work. A permit...hmm.

    No officer, I have a permit to have a cold frosty friendly, see, here it is. I am formerly/formally trained, and state certified to carry and imbibe.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ok. I was just wondering. I had just gotten back from open carry luncheon in Whatcom County, WA:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post2144448

    6 of us gathered, along with our families and had a wonderful lunch in the outdoor garden and 5 out of 6 of us enjoyed a hoppy beverage with lunch. I'll make sure and tell them how wrong we were and how bad of an example of everyday people doing everyday things while carrying a firearm we set. Thank you for telling us how wrong it is.

    I do have a question though. What about the concealed carry only people who say it is an "indisputable fact" that open carry serves no benefit to the RKBA community for others to observe a legal gun-carrier openly "flaunting" his firearm "in the public's face" and how just because open carry is legal does not make it smart? Is their claim to an "indisputable fact" any less valid than your claim of an "indisputable fact?"
    No problem. And BTW, I do so enjoy reading thinly veiled, poorly constructed sarcasm, so thanks for that.

    As to your other question, I'm open to enlightenment. Please provide an example or two for all of us to read here, detailing how an anti-gun person observing a legal gun carrier drinking an alcoholic beverage is in any way beneficial to our effort to promote gun carriers as responsible assets to society as a whole. And then back to my previous question, why do the people see fit to make it illegal to consume any alcohol while driving? Are not the same liberties that you post above at stake with driving? Where is the cry for open containers?

    TFred

  9. #9
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This notion that booze and firearms don't mix is just the absolutism thinking that the anti-liberty crowd wants we gun owners to burden ourselves with. skid is 100% correct, it is what you do with your gat that matters, not what you had to drink before you used your gat.

    Folks who carry this view of booze and guns need to work to get a law enacted that makes unlawful the consumption of adult beverages at home, where guns are possessed too. Of course, the state will need to know who has guns at home, and who drinks booze. Of course a LE exemption will need to be in the law. As well as a exemption for politicians and LE bureaucrats. Or, better yet, a special permit can be issued to those who wish to drink a brewski while packing heat. This would accomplish the who has guns and where the guns are part, part of the permit application process.

    yepper, it could work. A permit...hmm.

    No officer, I have a permit to have a cold frosty friendly, see, here it is. I am formerly/formally trained, and state certified to carry and imbibe.
    No, the notion that booze and firearms don't mix is common sense. And please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say it should be illegal. It's just something that a responsible gun-owner should be aware can badly damage the cause.

    TFred

  10. #10
    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Please provide an example or two for all of us to read here, detailing how an anti-gun person observing a legal gun carrier drinking an alcoholic beverage is in any way beneficial to our effort to promote gun carriers as responsible assets to society as a whole.

    The same way that an anti-gun person observing a legal gun carrier carrying a gun ordering tacos at Taco Bell is an any way beneficial to our effort to promote gun carriers as responsible assets to society as a whole. People have observed me, carrying a gun, having lunch and/or dinner with my wife and daughter and enjoying a beer. They see me being polite to the staff, they see me enjoying the company of my lovely wife and beautiful daughter. They see walk to to the car and get in the passenger side while my wife drives away.

    And then back to my previous question, why do the people see fit to make it illegal to consume any alcohol while driving?

    Because they are OPERATING that piece of equipment. I'll ask you a question - why have they not made it illegal to consume alcohol with car keys in your pocket and the car they fit parked in the parking lot? I am not OPERATING or HANDLING my firearm. I am carrying it. Is it a bad example for the prevention of DUI's to consume alcohol while in possession of car keys?

    Where is the cry for open containers?

    How does the presence of an open container of alcohol provide for the safety of the driver or occupants against a criminal attack? (Although, I suppose they could hit the attacker with a bottle).



    There are people who say the same thing about guns in a home with children. Guns and children don't mix. So does that mean that we all should get rid of our guns that have children in the house?
    Strawman.

    You guys sure do take mixing booze and guns seriously.

    Is it that hard to see that the perception of mixing booze and guns MAY damage our cause or MAY cause trouble with those statist/jackbooted/criminal/out-to-kill-anyone-they-can cops? Just ask our resident cop haters. Those cops are just salivating for a chance to shoot someone.

    Being cautious is not a bad thing. No one here is dictating anyone's behaviors.

  11. #11
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    No, that's not even close. Because perception becomes reality, and the indisputable fact of the matter is that it serves no benefit to the RKBA community for others to observe a legal gun-carrier consuming alcohol. Those who are anti-gun will surely exploit such observations to promote their "no guns for anyone" agenda, and those who are agnostic and otherwise uninformed could be easily swayed toward the anti-gun perspective at the observation of what appears to be irresponsible behavior.

    Consider the consumption of alcohol in relation to driving. How much is too much? There are clearly defined, scientifically observable limits. Yet why is it against the law to consume ANY alcohol while driving? Are there any credible complaints about not being allowed to consume "reasonable" amounts of alcohol while driving? Carrying a gun is not the same as carrying a hammer. You not only have to be in total control of your motor skills to operate it properly, you must be in total control of your mental abilities to govern if/when to use it as well.

    This subject really is a no-brainer. Just because it's legal doesn't make it smart.

    TFred
    My gun has about 4 controls I need to use properly. My truck has about 30. If I can have a beer and drive my complicated, 5000 lb, steel missile then why can't I have something super simple and is a Right?
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

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  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    How can it be recklessly "handling" of a firearm when the firearm is not being "handled?" Handle (verb): feel or manipulate with the hands. I don't recall a single person touching their firearm during lunch. And I don't see alcohol mentioned anywhere in the Virginia statute.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Because the term "under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs" has never been provided an objective measurement. DUI does not happen until you reach 0.08% BAC. Reckless handling of a firearm*, due to the lack of an objective measurement, could be charged at 0.01% BAC.

    It's that whole discretion vs valor thing. You may not want to spit into the wind or tug on Superman's cape even though there are no laws against doing so. If you do, just don't come back crying about what happened.


    Section A does not require that the life, limb or property of any person suffer an injury or harm - merely that it was endangered. Endangered is subjective.
    Endangered is not what will happen but what could happen.

    Yes, we in Virginia take a calculated risk every day that we carry. So far it appears the calculus is that the risk is low.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    You are missing my point entirely. The statute regards handling a firearm. So, in order for a person to be convicted of reckless endangerment it would seem to me that they would have to be actually handling the firearm. Or are you saying you risk conviction because you have a firearm in a holster and at some time in the future you could endanger someone by handling it? If that is true, then the cops should be arresting people drinking in bars with car keys in their pockets because they have the potential to drive when they leave.
    Kinda almost precisely what you said.

    § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured.
    But you can be charged with committing the crime of brandishing without having your hands in close proximity to the object, let alone actually "pointing, holding or brandishing" anything. The operative phrase is not related to touching the object but to "reasonably induc[ing] fear in the mind of another."

    On the other hand, reckless driving is closely defined

    https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...0+cod+46.2-852
    § 46.2-852. Reckless driving; general rule.

    Irrespective of the maximum speeds permitted by law, any person who drives a vehicle on any highway recklessly or at a speed or in a manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person shall be guilty of reckless driving.
    There are other objective standards that distinguish reckless driving (in Virginia) from driving like a jerk: http://www.bobbattlelaw.com/faqs/wha...n-virginia.cfm

    Here, if you wade through the advertising, you will get a decent summary of reckless driving. http://www.vatrafficlaw.com/reckless.html Again, in all the examples given one must actually be driving (seated in the vehicle, behind the steering wheel, operating the controls) a motor vehicle.

    The "act" of handling a firearm had not been defined in statute. So yes, carrying it around securely holstered could, in the grand scheme of things, be seen by someone who had a "reasonably induced fear" as being reckless handling. Once we get to that point we need to convince a police officer/deputy, a magistrate and/or a Commonwealth Attorney that in fact the elements of the crime appear to exist. (It is up to the trier of fact to determine if the elements do in fact exist, beyond a reasonable doubt.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  14. #14
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBrinson View Post
    Strawman.

    You guys sure do take mixing booze and guns seriously.

    Is it that hard to see that the perception of mixing booze and guns MAY damage our cause or MAY cause trouble with those statist/jackbooted/criminal/out-to-kill-anyone-they-can cops? Just ask our resident cop haters. Those cops are just salivating for a chance to shoot someone.

    Being cautious is not a bad thing. No one here is dictating anyone's behaviors.
    Sorry but it was not a straw man it was an analogy directly related to your statement to show how "normalizing" having a drink is.

    I then find the irony of the fallacy dealing with cops after trying to paint someones argument as a fallacy, amusing.

    It's not hard to see that perception at all, but as Navy was pointing out in his analogy that perception for an anti is there no matter what you do.

    But hey maybe here in the Northwest we aren't so prudish about having a beer and don't seem hung up on others puritanical ideals.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Sorry but it was not a straw man it was an analogy directly related to your statement to show how "normalizing" having a drink is.

    I then find the irony of the fallacy dealing with cops after trying to paint someones argument as a fallacy, amusing.

    It's not hard to see that perception at all, but as Navy was pointing out in his analogy that perception for an anti is there no matter what you do.

    But hey maybe here in the Northwest we aren't so prudish about having a beer and don't seem hung up on others puritanical ideals.
    Don't see the perception of prudish or puritanical having anything to do with it.

    There is a difference in the laws (different states) and the application thereof.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    No, that's not even close. Because perception becomes reality, and the indisputable fact of the matter is that it serves no benefit to the RKBA community for others to observe a legal gun-carrier consuming alcohol. Those who are anti-gun will surely exploit such observations to promote their "no guns for anyone" agenda, and those who are agnostic and otherwise uninformed could be easily swayed toward the anti-gun perspective at the observation of what appears to be irresponsible behavior.

    Consider the consumption of alcohol in relation to driving. How much is too much? There are clearly defined, scientifically observable limits. Yet why is it against the law to consume ANY alcohol while driving? Are there any credible complaints about not being allowed to consume "reasonable" amounts of alcohol while driving? Carrying a gun is not the same as carrying a hammer. You not only have to be in total control of your motor skills to operate it properly, you must be in total control of your mental abilities to govern if/when to use it as well.

    This subject really is a no-brainer. Just because it's legal doesn't make it smart.

    TFred
    TFred, I am going to disagree with you. First, Perception does not become reality! If it did our right to keep and bear arms would be in serious jeopardy. The perception of the anti's is "who needs a gun in a grocery store? - it should not be allowed!" It frightens the mom's in Target or Starbucks to see someone legally open carrying and it should not be allowed, so they may vote for the guy who says he will change the laws to make it illegal.....however, I hear that we need to exercise our rights to keep them and not give up those rights because others may be uncomfortable with our exercise of those rights. We do not suggest that we should stop open carrying in those places because it may hurt our cause.

    I will agree with you that someone should not be drinking AND using a firearm, the same as I would say they should not drink too much and drive but they are innocent of the crime of drunk driving until their actions (not perceptions) break the law. People have a drink and get up and walk out the door and get in their car all the time without being legally drunk, or impaired, or breaking the law. Why are we imposing limits beyond what the law prescribes because of what they might do or how it looks? The anti's are trying to do that all the time, from setting limits on the number of firearms one can purchase in a month to the size of the magazines we can employ....no one needs to carry that much ammunition or have that kind of weapon or drink while armed. The penalties are stiff (and rightly so) for anyone carrying a firearm while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. This is not a rampant problem with another normally law abiding citizen shooting up a place every other day. It is another side of the "someone might do something so we need to make it so they can't" coin (domestic violence "prevention" comes to mind). Is anyone who drinks outside their home sending a bad message that it is okay to drive drunk? Can a responsible adult consume alcohol in moderation and still safely operate a motor vehicle - IMHO YES. Can a responsible gun owner partake in an adult beverage and still behave responsibly? - IMHO YES. We should not have to choose to disarm and be defenseless if we want to have a glass of wine with dinner.

    The government already forces us to disarm and be defenseless too many times for no rationale reason (other than their own fears - federal park buildings, churches, other gunfreezones) or because of what we might do. Why should be support another? This also sounds like another "open carry of long guns hurts our cause and they shouldn't do it)

  17. #17
    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Sorry but it was not a straw man it was an analogy directly related to your statement to show how "normalizing" having a drink is.

    I then find the irony of the fallacy dealing with cops after trying to paint someones argument as a fallacy, amusing.

    It's not hard to see that perception at all, but as Navy was pointing out in his analogy that perception for an anti is there no matter what you do.

    But hey maybe here in the Northwest we aren't so prudish about having a beer and don't seem hung up on others puritanical ideals.
    How can you tell when you have reached the legal limit of being intoxicated? Are you drunk now?

  18. #18
    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    In reply to Skidmark's post #19, which I am not going to quote for brevity - the Virginia Citizens' Self Defense League largely disagrees with what was posted.
    http://www.ammoland.com/2013/12/firearms-brandishing/



    I must say, I am very thankful to live in Washington where we don't have such problems. Our state Supreme Court has ruled that a handgun simply carried in a holster cannot raise to the level of "manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons" which is basically the same thing that the Virginia Self Defense League says about a holstered handgun in Virginia.

    In addition, the VCDL explanation of "brandishing" is much more in line with the actual definition of "brandishing" than Skidmark's post is:
    Brandish (verb): wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

    This article, and the criminal defense attorney referenced, also disagrees with Skidmark:
    http://www.styleweekly.com/richmond/...nt?oid=1487584



    I hardly see how any majority of people could reasonably conclude that a person who is having a peaceful lunch or dinner with a holstered firearm could appear to have the intent to induce fear.

    Anyway...both sides have been presented so people can make their own informed decisions.
    How many shovels do you want/need?

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I was charged, arrested, and tried for brandishing. Even the Commonwealth's Attorney eventually agreed I had never touched the holstered handgun.

    You are discussing what most likely will happen. I am discussing what could happen.

    Knowing both helps you reach a decision about whether or not to take the calculated risk.

    I hardly see how any majority of people could reasonably conclude that a person who is having a peaceful lunch or dinner with a holstered firearm could appear to have the intent to induce fear.
    It does not take "a majority" of people. It takes one - usually one with an agenda. Again, you calculate the risks involved and act as you see appropriate.

    While it may be comforting to know that it can't happen in WA, that is completely irrelevant to the discussion which is about gun laws in Virginia.

    What might be useful at a later date is a citation to WA law or case law that might serve as the framework for legislation that brings VA closer in line to what you say is the WA status quo.

    In closing - it is the Virginia Citizens Self Defense League.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBrinson View Post
    How can you tell when you have reached the legal limit of being intoxicated? Are you drunk now?
    Just to clarify - in VA the issue is not intoxication but being under the influence, which is not quantified as regards firearms. "Under the influence" is usually defined as any measurable BAC. Mouthwash could place you under the influence.

    I'm not trying to split hairs here - just reciting the facts of the matter upon which some cop may take action. Based on that a person can make their own decision what the risks are. But intentionally withholding facts is unethical (and if I was a licensed attorney probably would be both illegal and a violation of the Canon of Ethics). An adviser/explainer/guide's responsibility is to lay out all the available information so that the advisee/explainee/guidee can make what is so often referred to as an "informed decision".

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    .

    But it does take a majority of people to gain a conviction - that group of people being the jury.
    BZZZZZ! Wrong! It's a misdemeanor - all you get is a judge.

    I presented the case law in Virginia regarding what brandishing is.
    So did I. Do either of us win a prize?

    And no, you presented no case law. You presented an incomplete reference to the Code of Virginia and some person's opinion. Case law is what's presented here: http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

    I'm pretty sure we are very close to beating this horse to death, and nether the OP nor his friend have chimed in to say anything one way or another.

    stay safe.

    PS - missed your post on wanting a shovel from the Va Court of Appeals. Even so it seems I have delivered several to you.
    Last edited by skidmark; 06-09-2015 at 12:41 AM. Reason: adding snarky response
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  22. #22
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Don't see the perception of prudish or puritanical having anything to do with it.

    There is a difference in the laws (different states) and the application thereof.
    The poster I replied and the others Navy replied are not just talking law they are talking perceptions of others.

    IF people make a big deal about having a drink it seems sort of prudish and puritanical. Although many puritans drank way more than we do nowadays.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBrinson View Post
    How can you tell when you have reached the legal limit of being intoxicated? Are you drunk now?
    ???? I'll wait for a counter to the actual words said.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    BZZZZZ! Wrong! It's a misdemeanor - all you get is a judge.



    So did I. Do either of us win a prize?

    And no, you presented no case law. You presented an incomplete reference to the Code of Virginia and some person's opinion. Case law is what's presented here: http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

    I'm pretty sure we are very close to beating this horse to death, and nether the OP nor his friend have chimed in to say anything one way or another.

    stay safe.

    PS - missed your post on wanting a shovel from the Va Court of Appeals. Even so it seems I have delivered several to you.
    Off topic surprise here. Your state has done away with your right to a jury trial if it isn't a felony?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    I've read the entire thread and no one seems to have said -- unless I missed it -- that if you DO have to use your firearm AND you have been drinking alcoholic beverages, the prosecuting attorney is going to have a field day characterizing you as a person "under the influence" and therefore your judgement was impaired. Remember that in Virginia -- the state under consideration in the OP's posting -- does not identify a specific BAC in the statute for "being under the influence."

    I will not risk consuming alcoholic beverages while carrying and having that situation become an issue in any legal situation.
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