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Thread: who needs a gun while confronting trespassers

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    who needs a gun while confronting trespassers

    http://m.wdbj7.com/news/local/southe...ssers/33393962

    Bennie Wesley Sigmon, 48, was shot multiple times by the one of the three men who were trespassing on his property.
    DANVILLE, Va. -

    UPDATE: A Danville man is dead after confronting three trespassers early Thursday morning.

    Bennie Wesley Sigmon, 48, was shot multiple times by the one of the three men who were trespassing on his property.

    This happened at his home on the 2000 block of Rocklawn Place around 4:20 a.m. He was taken to Danville Regional Medical Center, where he died shortly before 7 a.m.

    Danville police are investigating Sigmon's death as a murder. The medical examiner will perform an autopsy.

    No arrests have been made.

    Anyone with information should contact Danville Crime Stoppers at (434) 793-0000 or email crimetips@danvilleva.gov.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Should have just hidden in his closet or under his bed. No reason to go out in his own yard at 4:00 in the morning, even if he knew the people and had no reason to fear them.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Should have brought a flashlight to investigate. Particularly one mounted to the forearm of an AR.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Should have brought a flashlight to investigate. Particularly one mounted to the forearm of an AR.
    I'm just waiting for one of those dog hunters to get their brains blown out while sneaking around houses. That'll speed things up some in the General Assembly.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    No reason to go out in his own yard at 4:00 in the morning

    I like to take my LARGE dogs outside at all hours of the day/night, so they get exposed to different situations.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    People who own property but don't carry 24/7 confuse me.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    He was supposed to go out on his porch with his double barreled shotgun and fire two times..................
    Isn't that the VP's prescription for bad guys on your property?
    Last edited by Shovelhead; 06-06-2015 at 05:47 PM.
    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    He was supposed to go out on his porch with his double barreled shotgun and fire two times..................
    Isn't that the VP's prescription for bad guys on your property?
    One if by land, two if by sea......with apologies to Henry.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    He was supposed to go out on his porch with his double barreled shotgun and fire two times..................
    Isn't that the VP's prescription for bad guys on your property?
    It was a single shot, on the veranda, iirc.


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  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    He was supposed to go out on his porch with his double barreled shotgun and fire two times..................
    Isn't that the VP's prescription for bad guys on your property?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    It was a single shot, on the veranda, iirc.


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    Only if was off the balcony. http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/was...ing-gun-in-air

    On February 19 Biden – then promoting a package of gun control proposals that included a ban on assault-style rifles – said he had advised his wife, "if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house."
    No balcony, no can shoot.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  11. #11
    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Only if was off the balcony. http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/was...ing-gun-in-air
    No balcony, no can shoot.

    stay safe.
    How tall does your porch/deck have to be to be considered as a balcony?
    Last edited by Shovelhead; 06-06-2015 at 08:20 PM.
    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    How tall does your porch/deck have to be to be considered as a balcony?
    Height has nothing to do with it.
    http://mgerwingarch.com/2011/07/28/a...-deck-balcony/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    People who own property but don't carry 24/7 confuse me.
    Exactly. Can't quite understand it.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I understand that a person expends time and effort in order to get "things", as well as giving up other things in order to get "things". But going out of a secure position to investigate someone who does not have permission to be on your property? I don't understand why folks think doing so is a good idea.

    I'm not saying you have to wait for the cops to arrive. I'm saying that until you know who and what you are up against it is a big risk with little reward to leave cover.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I understand that a person expends time and effort in order to get "things", as well as giving up other things in order to get "things". But going out of a secure position to investigate someone who does not have permission to be on your property? I don't understand why folks think doing so is a good idea.

    I'm not saying you have to wait for the cops to arrive. I'm saying that until you know who and what you are up against it is a big risk with little reward to leave cover.

    stay safe.
    Agreed. Last year I had the occasion to confront three trespassing hunters on my property in Surry County. Several thoughts ran through my head when I spotted them coming onto my land while I was out hunting. Dial 911 on my cell? Slowly retreat to the house? Approach and confront? Confront without being seen? I chose to confront without being seen. Since I was deer hunting UNTIL I saw the three (armed with shotguns) trespassers enter my property, I had my blaze orange cap on. I took the hat off, took cover behind a large oak, peeked out and shouted to them that they were on private property and demanded that they leave immediately. (I had my cellphone recording as well). There was more to this but the point is that I was outside, and chose to remain hidden until they were no longer on my property as you just never know where a confrontation will lead. I could have called the sheriff I suppose, but I was on a trail that I could have moved quickly, 100 yards away, behind cover of trees and guessed, correctly, that they were just taking advantage of hunting my land knowing at that time I was not there very often. Had I been in my field and noticed three armed people walking in the woods, I would have handled the situation differently.

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    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Who dat?

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    No flashlights
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
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    No flashlights
    Be sure of your target. Unless I'm right behind the wire where only the enemy is supposed to be out there I need a better target identification.

    No need to holler "Halt! Who goes there - friend or foe?" My friends will notify me that they are approaching. Everybody else needs to have a good response to "Who the eff are you and what the eff are you doing here?"

    In boot camp the company commander decided to go see how the recruits walking guard duty were doing. He got the "Halt, who goes there ..." challenge. He said he was the company commander so was instructed to come forward to be identified. Problem was I had never laid eyes on him or his picture. Proned him out and called for the Sergeant of the Guard - that worthy gentleman wanted to tear me at least one or possibly several new ones. Company commander stopped him and made a note to check up the food chain to find out why "his" recruit did not know what he looked like. Told to reinforce "know your target". I was forever afterwards targeted (for exposing the screw-up of the DIs and their leaders).

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    Troublemaker. Everyone knows the CO is Farid Mohamed Admidinijad....[emoji4]


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  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    Troublemaker.
    Everybody gets an MOS. Some are just highly specialized.

    [/QUOTE]
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Regular Member 325rto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shovelhead View Post
    He was supposed to go out on his porch with his double barreled shotgun and fire two times..................
    Isn't that the VP's prescription for bad guys on your property?

    I like that method. Just remember to bring more shells.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    At the risk of waxing excessively serious in what has been generally witty and clever, I've got a couple of observations.

    1. You can never defend "mere property" with a display, much less use, of deadly force. "Mere property" is personal property (that is not presently subject to a burglary) and real property that is beyond the curtilage. "Stopping a serious felony in progress" is ok (rape, robbery, murder, burglary, and arson) as is "defense of habitation" (popularly, "castle doctrine"), because those imply a threat of serious bodily harm to humans potentially present and an obvious willingness to kill 'em.

    2. Never, ever, fire a warning shot in Virginia. It almost always leads to prosecution for crimes even if it was done for a good reason. Unless and until you have a necessity to kill, keep the gun in its holster, don't look at it, don't touch it, don't talk about it, and don't gesture towards it or call attention to it in any way. But as Tuco said in "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly", "When you need to shoot, shoot! Don't talk."

    3. Assuming the land is marked, posted, or fenced, and unless you have given prior permission, hunters may not enter with vehicles, bows or firearms to retrieve dogs, prey, etc. 18.2-136. You can prohibit possession of firearms on your own property just as a shopping mall can. I take the position that a person on my land who is not a bona fide licensee (there with my permission) and carries a gun when I've told him not to do so becomes a self defense situation: I have, at that time, a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that he is presenting me with an imminent threat of serious bodily injury while engaged in unlawful activity (hence a presumption of malice). If I tell him to put the gun down and take three steps backwards (no, not into the covered pit of snakes), and he doesn't do it, I'm justified in believing that he intends to kill me.

    "And that's all I've got to say about that."
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Question about number one. I just read a lawsuit a couple days ago (on mobile, will find it after lunch) where the judges had said that pointing a firearm at a threat is not considered deadly force and is an acceptable for of self defense. Not in so many words mind you, but that was the gist of what the judge said while defending the cops pointing firearms directly at someone being unlawfully detained.

    Is there any case law pertinent to VA about pointing a firearm being the same as use of deadly force? Or is that a murky area of law where it could go either way depending on the judge hearing the case?
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

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  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Question about number one. I just read a lawsuit a couple days ago (on mobile, will find it after lunch) where the judges had said that pointing a firearm at a threat is not considered deadly force and is an acceptable for of self defense. Not in so many words mind you, but that was the gist of what the judge said while defending the cops pointing firearms directly at someone being unlawfully detained.

    Is there any case law pertinent to VA about pointing a firearm being the same as use of deadly force? Or is that a murky area of law where it could go either way depending on the judge hearing the case?
    Pointing a gun is brandishing. If the situation is such as you need to point it, shoot.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Pointing a gun is brandishing. If the situation is such as you need to point it, shoot.
    Except when pointing removes the need to shoot. Constantly reassess your situation. Although the gap in time between drawing and firing can be very short indeed, if you don't need to shoot, don't.


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  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Pointing a gun is brandishing. If the situation is such as you need to point it, shoot.
    Ya doesn't even have to point it, just bringing intentional attention to it by your actions can be construed as brandishing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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