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Thread: web forums threatened by new Obama regulation

  1. #1
    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    web forums threatened by new Obama regulation

    Obama, what a beep, beep and beeeeeeeep.

    We will have to be very careful of what is said here and other pro-gun sites if this happens. This type of crap just never ends.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/nr...rticle/2565762
    Last edited by OC Freedom; 06-10-2015 at 10:54 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    make your feelings [sic] known

    http://www.pagunblog.com/2015/06/08/...ilencing-rule/

    A short and informative instruction manual.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  3. #3
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    Obama, what a beep, beep and beeeeeeeep.

    We will have to be very careful of what is said here and other pro-gun sites if this happens. This type of crap just never ends.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/nr...rticle/2565762
    This is a fear claim by the NRA, Obama knows this would never get past the courts, and NRA showed no supporting evidence that he would take such a move. This rule has been on the books for years, and never intended for what NRA claims. This is much like the NRA's remarks on open carry, that backfired on them.

    It is IMO, give us your money or else. We have much bigger things to be concerned with than this malarkey.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    From the VCDL Va-Alert dated 6/10/15

    The NRA-ILA is sounding the alarm on this one: the feds want to put a roadblock on dissemination of all technical information on guns and ammunition on the internet, based on the ITAR trade agreement.

    Before videos, blogs, or other public postings could be put on the internet, some government bureaucrat will have to pre-approve it! What is the penalty if someone has the audacity to post technical information on guns or ammunition without government approval? Up to a ONE MILLION DOLLAR fine and up to TWENTY YEARS in jail!

    The antis have long wanted to use international agreements as excuses to restrict gun rights in America and this would be a big one. Easily accessible technical data on guns and ammunition would dry up. Who knows what some Washington bureaucrat might call technical data requiring government approval? Educational material on how guns work? Reloading data? Schematics? Repair information?

    This is just another sneaky scheme to undermine both the 1st and 2nd Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and should be opposed by anyone who supports the Constitution.

    ACTION ITEMS (must be no later than August 3, 2015)

    Email address: DDTCPublicComments@state.gov

    USE THIS SUBJECT LINE ONLY: ITAR Amendment Revisions to Definitions; Data Transmission and Storage.

    Suggested message:

    I oppose any changes to Data Transmission and Storage in ITAR with respect to firearms and ammunition. Publicly available information on these commonly owned lawful commodities should not be stifled in any way or for any reason.

    YOUR NAME
    YOUR ADDRESS
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-10-2015 at 09:30 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    From the VCDL Va-Alert dated 6/10/15

    The NRA-ILA is sounding the alarm on this one: the feds want to put a roadblock on dissemination of all technical information on guns and ammunition on the internet, based on the ITAR trade agreement.
    ...
    Just a small correction, but ITAR is not a "trade agreement". It is US Federal Regulations (law). It is the "International Traffic in Arms Regulation". In this case "international" refers to the import or export into or out of this nation. It does not refer to any kind of agreement or treaty with other nations.

    From wiki

    [These] regulations control the export and import of defense-related articles and services on the United States Munitions List (USML).[1] These regulations implement the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), and are described in Title 22 (Foreign Relations), Chapter I (Department of State), Subchapter M of the Code of Federal Regulations.

    ...

    For practical purposes, ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military related technologies (items listed on the U.S. Munitions List) may only be shared with U.S. Persons unless authorization from the Department of State is received or a special exemption is used.[3] U.S. Persons (including organizations) can face heavy fines if they have, without authorization or the use of an exemption, provided foreign persons with access to ITAR-protected defense articles, services or technical data.[4]

    ...

    ITAR does not apply to information related to general scientific, mathematical or engineering principles that is commonly taught in schools and colleges or information that is in the public domain.[8]:§ 120.10(5)[8]:§ 120.11 Nor does it apply to general marketing information or basic system descriptions.[8]:§ 120.10(5) Broad interpretations of these exceptions have faced several legal challenges. For example college professors have been prosecuted for breaches of the AECA as a result of access to USML items by foreign graduate students[9] and companies have been penalized for alleged breaches of the AECA for failing to properly remove USML items from material used to market defense articles.[10] The U.S. Government has also taken action (albeit unsuccessfully) for the export of technical data that was allegedly already publicly available on the Internet.[11][12][13][14]
    In addition to ITAR, there are other laws that govern import-export of "dual use" or commercial items.

    Charles
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Grape, I stole a few of your elegant words and used them on Whatcom Countys fazeboog page.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Grape, I stole a few of your elegant words and used them on Whatcom Countys fazeboog page.
    Feel free - I elegantly stole borrowed them from someone else.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Feel free - I elegantly stole borrowed them from someone else.
    Since when was plagiary considered elegant?

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    Since when was plagiary considered elegant?
    It was the words that were described as elegant, not he act of passing them on to others. We share here with but a small concern for copyright infringement.

    Please give a sample of an 100% original thought you may have had w/o any contribution from someone else....or is it only forwarding when you do it?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    I have one - 'Trust but Verify' or one I used in High School running for Student Council, "i will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience"


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  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPmatt View Post
    I have one - 'Trust but Verify' or one I used in High School running for Student Council, "i will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience"
    ...
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    What the hell!!!

    BTW the above is someone's else word at some point in time. Sheeeeesh!
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
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    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augustin View Post
    Grapeshot,

    --edited by Moderator - personal attack--
    Are you referring to the post where Grape clearly states he was passing along a VCDL alert?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-13-2015 at 10:30 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    hummm, did ya'l see any smileys around augustin_s cranky post on grape"s etiquette and discuss'g grape;smanhood ?????

    guess the poster was plumb serious at his rebuke towards grape tho his significant breach of netiquette by hollar'n at the end is a tad bit baffling isn't it?? http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...e-code-yelling

    guess they can have it both ways in their world...

    hang in their or is it there, or they're grape, this olde boi puts 10000 % be work'n on a ed-u-ma-ca-ion course to get your wrightting and gramma up to, or is it two, or tooooo, drat steed...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-13-2015 at 05:54 PM.
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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Back on target

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    'nuff said. Anything contrary to that is not law and therefore any attempts to enforce it would trigger whatever reasonable force is necessary to protect oneself from a crime being committed against them
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

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  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Back on target

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    'nuff said. Anything contrary to that is not law and therefore any attempts to enforce it would trigger whatever reasonable force is necessary to protect oneself from a crime being committed against them
    Tell me how that's working for you in the real world.

    Just as free speech does not extend to yelling "Fire!" in a theater when there is no fire, free speech can run up against a few other issues. In the case under discussion it pretty much falls back to the .gov's power to punish treason and the .gov's power to define what acts meet the definition of treason.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii

    Article III
    ....
    Section 3.

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

    The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
    The changes in regulations change what is considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Up until now you can find the blueprints and instructions on how to build a thermonuclear device on the internet, and email them to your email-pal (modern equivalent of pen-pal) in Southeastern West Northistan. If the changes are put into place a strict (or not so strict) reading would make publishing what passes for a gun evaluation article in a gun magazine a treasonable act. It's just not going to be prosecuted as treason, but as a violation of a regulation designed to prevent treason.

    DISCLAIMER: I do not support the proposed changes, but as I speak fluent governmentese I offer my translation services at no cost. Caveat Emptor

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Tell me how that's working for you in the real world.

    Just as free speech does not extend to yelling "Fire!" in a theater when there is no fire, free speech can run up against a few other issues. In the case under discussion it pretty much falls back to the .gov's power to punish treason and the .gov's power to define what acts meet the definition of treason.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii



    The changes in regulations change what is considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Up until now you can find the blueprints and instructions on how to build a thermonuclear device on the internet, and email them to your email-pal (modern equivalent of pen-pal) in Southeastern West Northistan. If the changes are put into place a strict (or not so strict) reading would make publishing what passes for a gun evaluation article in a gun magazine a treasonable act. It's just not going to be prosecuted as treason, but as a violation of a regulation designed to prevent treason.

    DISCLAIMER: I do not support the proposed changes, but as I speak fluent governmentese I offer my translation services at no cost. Caveat Emptor

    stay safe.
    Governmentese.... I love it..... Many tyrants also speak this language fluently....

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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Tell me how that's working for you in the real world.

    Just as free speech does not extend to yelling "Fire!" in a theater when there is no fire, free speech can run up against a few other issues. In the case under discussion it pretty much falls back to the .gov's power to punish treason and the .gov's power to define what acts meet the definition of treason.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii



    The changes in regulations change what is considered giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Up until now you can find the blueprints and instructions on how to build a thermonuclear device on the internet, and email them to your email-pal (modern equivalent of pen-pal) in Southeastern West Northistan. If the changes are put into place a strict (or not so strict) reading would make publishing what passes for a gun evaluation article in a gun magazine a treasonable act. It's just not going to be prosecuted as treason, but as a violation of a regulation designed to prevent treason.

    DISCLAIMER: I do not support the proposed changes, but as I speak fluent governmentese I offer my translation services at no cost. Caveat Emptor

    stay safe.
    Obama wrote these changes in 2011, FOUR years ago, since that time Defense Distributed was informed they were in violation of ITAR, two years later. SAF has filed a lawsuit this year for DD Cody Wilson. They always could make arrests on violations as they in 2007 for IIRC Yang attempted to buy chips that were on the list, which he intended to sell outside the US.

    While what happened to DD is reprehensible, the NRA is blatantly fear mongering to garner donations. Of course we all should make our feelings known to our representatives, we are not being put under a gag order. Nothing is more dangerous to our cause than a group crying wolf.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Walking Wolf -

    Please check the link I posted at Post #2. If you do not want to scroll back to it, here it is: http://www.pagunblog.com/2015/06/08/...ilencing-rule/

    Again:

    DATES: The Department of State will accept comments on this proposed rule until August 3, 2015.
    ADDRESSES: Interested parties may submit comments within 60 days of the date of publication by one of the following methods:
    Email: DDTCPublicComments@state.gov with the subject line, ‘‘ITAR Amendment—Revisions to Definitions; Data Transmission and Storage.’’
    Internet: At www.regulations.gov, search for this notice by using this rule’s RIN (1400–AD70).
    Do you see the word I bolded? It's not the same old same-old. State would not be soliciting comments on something that has existed for the past 4 years.

    Yes, the NRA and others may be a bit hysterical in order to convince you to donate money that cannot be earmarked for battling this specific issue. But the general gist of what they are saying is what the proposed rule will end up doing.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Walking Wolf -

    Please check the link I posted at Post #2. If you do not want to scroll back to it, here it is: http://www.pagunblog.com/2015/06/08/...ilencing-rule/

    Again:



    Do you see the word I bolded? It's not the same old same-old. State would not be soliciting comments on something that has existed for the past 4 years.

    Yes, the NRA and others may be a bit hysterical in order to convince you to donate money that cannot be earmarked for battling this specific issue. But the general gist of what they are saying is what the proposed rule will end up doing.

    stay safe.
    The lawsuit was filed last month by SAF, if they were going to implement the "proposed" new, old rule, they would not bother soliciting comments. Much the same on the ban on 5.56 ammo that did not happen. If you think they take comments, polls, petitions, I have a bridge to sell you. IMO I believe they are trying to fear monger because of the lawsuit, and then the NRA comes along to assist in scaring people from posting. If there are new rules Obama did not write them, he wrote them in 2011. IIRC NRA made note that the rules were in place for years.

    And I will repeat, the government always had the power to make arrests based on ITAR, as they have made them, but not for internet speech. And remember, and especially you should remember Obama can only issue EO, or rules for laws already on the books. Has the republican house approved such rules in the last year?

    "Will direct a review of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) to reevaluate restrictions imposed on American companies, with a special focus on space hardware that is currently restricted from commercial export. He will also direct revisions to the licensing process to ensure that American suppliers are competitive in the international aerospace markets, without jeopardizing American national security."

    President Barrack Obama

    This was a campaign promise, and that is the actual focus of what he is doing. I don't like Obama, but this carp is not helping, and making us look like lunatics.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-13-2015 at 09:44 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Have you actually compared the proposed ITAR against the current ITAR?

    If there are proposed changes they ought, by logic [I know, not a surety when dealing with .gov] to be different than the current stuff.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The changes were made in 2011, Obama can't make law, he can only control how the law is implemented if it is federal law. I am pretty sure that congress did not approve a change since Republicans took control of the house. You can't jail or fine someone without due process, that means it has to be law. So far I know of no arrests for firearm speech on the internet. A letter was sent to Defense Distributors demanding they take the plans down for the liberator pistol in 2013, no arrests were made. Last month SAF filed a lawsuit against the state department for violating the 1st, 2nd, and 5th amendments.

    NRA is sounding an alarm, when there has been no arrests, for a law that has been in effect for several years, and didn't even bother to acknowledge the SAF lawsuit. As far as the taking comments, that is a PR stunt to make the gun owners believe they are concerned. If they were going to gag the internet, or ban ammo, they wouldn't ask for comments, they would just do it. Do you really believe Obama cares what gun owners have to say?

    Funny, they didn't ask for comments to data mine emails, phone calls, and whatever else they spy on. They just did it, but thanks to whitleblowers the courts and the congress has limited their ability to do it. I have no doubt that if Rand Paul had this type of legislation change in front of him, we would have heard about it before the NRA cried wolf.

    Keep in mind that Obama will do anything to take the focus off of Hillary by gun owners. Hillary is our real threat to the 2A. Just like Obama if she gets elected she will probably serve two terms. And once a conservative SCOTUS judge retires, or dies the ball game is over, I mean over for good. Instead chancing these false threats we should be concentrating on Hillary losing.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 06-14-2015 at 03:33 AM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    The parallels to IngSoc doublespeak/doublethink are becoming unavoidable. See Nineteen Eighty-four.
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