Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: query re vehicle searches while LE looks for escapees

  1. #1
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,881

    query re vehicle searches while LE looks for escapees

    ok, the hundreds of nice LEs are truly eager to find the two horrible bad guys who escaped from a prison built during the civil war, as such, and as shown on the national news, LACs are running into their road blocks and the nice LEs were shown 'searching' private vehicles by looking throughout the vehicle, including the trunk.

    my query, is this type of 'search' legal, yes i acknowledge 'everyone' per se are being subjected to this type of stop but have questions if documents are requested? or the nice police find something they believe is contraband?

    finally, what prevents the nice LEs from setting up these types of on a regular basis?

    tks,

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  2. #2
    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    NO VA, ,
    Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    finally, what prevents the nice LEs from setting up these types of on a regular basis?
    When stopped just wave your hand and tell them "These are not the droids you're looking for."
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	droids.jpg 
Views:	73 
Size:	10.5 KB 
ID:	12592  
    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ok, the hundreds of nice LEs are truly eager to find the two horrible bad guys who escaped from a prison built during the civil war, as such, and as shown on the national news, LACs are running into their road blocks and the nice LEs were shown 'searching' private vehicles by looking throughout the vehicle, including the trunk.

    my query, is this type of 'search' legal, yes i acknowledge 'everyone' per se are being subjected to this type of stop but have questions if documents are requested? or the nice police find something they believe is contraband?

    finally, what prevents the nice LEs from setting up these types of on a regular basis?

    tks,

    ipse
    SCOTUS opinion.

    I forget. Michigan v Sitz? Delaware v Prouse? I can't recall, but there's a case out there that says cops can't use roadblocks for routine crime detection. DUI--yes. License and registration--yes. Maybe even safety equipment. But, everyday crime detection, no.

    Of course, its all smoke-and-mirrors, because anything else the cops find during a "legal" roadblock is gonna be admissible if it was in plain view or in a place the cop was otherwise allowed to look. Just more chiseling away of the 4th Amendment.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Motorists sue over 2-hour traffic stop after bank robbery in Aurora in 2012

    Might be worthwhile to follow up either with the reporter or with attorney David Lane.
    http://kln-law.com/news-stories/a-cl...-aurora-police

    https://localtvkdvr.files.wordpress....ury-demand.pdf
    Don't know the disposition of the case.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-15-2015 at 01:01 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,881
    Fallschirmjäger, thanks the filing was an interesting read as were the photos included in the filing.

    guess i now wonder if i would have survived as i can empathize with the olde bloke thrown on the ground and then forcibly wrenched up by his arm.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    These are not searches. They are merely "inspections".

    Now of course the cops, the press, the general public and most lawyers and attorneys find it difficult to explain the difference, although judges can do it in their sleep.

    It runs like this (using generalities):

    Are you transporting Terrible Horrible Bad Guy A and/or B in your vehicle?

    Are you hiding them in your vehicle?

    Are they hiding in your vehicle but you don't know they are?

    Do you mind if we take a look just to make sure they didn't slip in when your back was turned?

    What's that? You want to know if I have a warrant? Why, only someone who is guilty of hiding someone/something would want to see a warrant. Pull over there. Yes, you are being detained. No, I do not have to tell you what RAS or PC the detention is based on. Try to leave and I'll shoot you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d22CiKMPpaY

    Here's the warrant, now open up.

    Oh! There nobody/nothing in the trunk. You are under arrest for obstruction of justice.

    You know, you could have avoided all this if you had just let us look in the first place.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    missouri
    Posts
    497
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    These are not searches. They are merely "inspections".

    Now of course the cops, the press, the general public and most lawyers and attorneys find it difficult to explain the difference, although judges can do it in their sleep.

    It runs like this (using generalities):

    Are you transporting Terrible Horrible Bad Guy A and/or B in your vehicle?

    Are you hiding them in your vehicle?

    Are they hiding in your vehicle but you don't know they are?

    Do you mind if we take a look just to make sure they didn't slip in when your back was turned?

    What's that? You want to know if I have a warrant? Why, only someone who is guilty of hiding someone/something would want to see a warrant. Pull over there. Yes, you are being detained. No, I do not have to tell you what RAS or PC the detention is based on. Try to leave and I'll shoot you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d22CiKMPpaY

    Here's the warrant, now open up.

    Oh! There nobody/nothing in the trunk. You are under arrest for obstruction of justice.

    You know, you could have avoided all this if you had just let us look in the first place.

    stay safe.


    how about more like: "officer, I do not like the implications you are trying to propose during this stop, as a result I would like to invoke my rights under both the 5th and the 4th, and would like to have an attorney present during any such search that is deemed legal by the presentation of a warrant signed by a judge."

    then call the nearest attorney via cell phone.

    obstruction of justice cannot occur if, when they provide the legal requirements, you cooperate. invoking of your rights and ENFORCING THEM, is not cause for obstruction. justice can only be created by making sure both sides play by the rules. otherwise it is tyranny.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    What gets me worked up most about The Great Aurora Bank Robbery Detention, is the specious reasoning used behind it. I believe it went something like "We saw the tracing signal stop, and in order to ensure the safety of the citizens from armed bank robbers we immediately surrounded the intersection " conveniently forgetting "... placing dozens of citizen's lives in possible jeopardy instead of following the signal until it stopped somewhere away from innocent civilians."

    It is patently obvious that the police considered the possibility that the tracer was discovered and thrown from the vehicle more important than the lives they jeopardized by surrounding armed criminals amidst innocents.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    ....

    obstruction of justice cannot occur ....
    We are not talking about whether or not you are going to be found guilty of obstructing justice.

    And yes, it is tyranny. But being tyranny does not mean it will not happen.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    missouri
    Posts
    497
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    We are not talking about whether or not you are going to be found guilty of obstructing justice.

    And yes, it is tyranny. But being tyranny does not mean it will not happen.

    stay safe.
    true, the unfortunate reality is that it seems to be occurring at an accelerated rate under the guise of "safety" or "security" nothing is safe or secure in regards to the individual you or others when your rights are violated.

    I wish people in masse would stop being such sheep, following the herd. it makes us who would prefer to enjoy our rights become targets for exemplifying why you don't go against the grain of "authority".

    even if we do win in a court of law.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    how about more like: "officer, I do not like the implications you are trying to propose during this stop, as a result I would like to invoke my rights under both the 5th and the 4th, and would like to have an attorney present during any such search that is deemed legal by the presentation of a warrant signed by a judge."

    then call the nearest attorney via cell phone.

    obstruction of justice cannot occur if, when they provide the legal requirements, you cooperate. invoking of your rights and ENFORCING THEM, is not cause for obstruction. justice can only be created by making sure both sides play by the rules. otherwise it is tyranny.
    Just to clarify for other readers, I definitely don't recommend enforcing your rights along the side of the road. Invoke them, refuse consent to searches, etc., but don't use force.

    Assuming you lose the fist-fight and/or tasering, you've put the cop in the position of losing his job and a lawsuit, or lying about what happened in whichever way will make it look like he was legal and you were obstructing or assaulting him. Backed into a corner, what do you think the cop will do? Lie? Or, tell the truth, lose his job, and lose a lawsuit?

    If you're man enough to take the risks, I won't say its your basic human right to defend yourself and your rights with force if need be.

    However, you might also consider recording everything, and behaving like an oh-so polite and slightly fearful victim. The cop will look that much worse for mistreating you.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,881
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Just to clarify for other readers, I definitely don't recommend enforcing your rights along the side of the road. Invoke them, refuse consent to searches, etc., but don't use force.
    Assuming you lose the fist-fight and/or tasering, you've put the cop in the position of losing his job and a lawsuit, or lying about what happened in whichever way will make it look like he was legal and you were obstructing or assaulting him. Backed into a corner, what do you think the cop will do? Lie? Or, tell the truth, lose his job, and lose a lawsuit?
    If you're man enough to take the risks, I won't say its your basic human right to defend yourself and your rights with force if need be.
    However, you might also consider recording everything, and behaving like an oh-so polite and slightly fearful victim. The cop will look that much worse for mistreating you.
    if you read the filing citizen, the nice APD officers 'insisted' their detainees sign releases saying they consented to the search of their vehicles and if you didn't sign they threatened the individual to hold them at the scene until they did sign.

    why i was curious about what is transpiring in NY with the manhunt...do you need to stop or is it obstruction of justice not to.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-15-2015 at 10:21 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    if you read the filing citizen, the nice APD officers 'insisted' their detainees sign releases saying they consented to the search of their vehicles and if you didn't sign they threatened the individual to hold them at the scene until they did sign.

    why i was curious about what is transpiring in NY with the manhunt...do you need to stop or is it obstruction of justice not to.

    ipse
    I don't know whether refusing to stop would be obstruction.

    I can predict that it would be "justification" for a guns-drawn felony stop just as soon as they can catch up with your car, though. I'll give five-to-one they'll gleefully assume you or your car has an escaped murderer in it
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Thru Death's Door in Wisconsin
    Posts
    13,155
    Until the parameters of a lawful command are clear, they will continue to abuse their discretion.

    In Wisconsin, they have the lawful authority to arrest without warrant for a traffic violation, then their subsequent actions are explicit in statute. Thus the legally acting citizen must stop for an evident traffic arrest, but they will then expand by abusing their discretion.

    I am threatened with arrest for "disobeying a lawful command" for refusing his extra-legal sniff and peek search by exiting and securing my vehicle. "Officer safety" is capricious for being their rationale for BOTH commanding exit and "remain in your car" at their whim.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  15. #15
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    ...
    why i was curious about what is transpiring in NY with the manhunt...do you need to stop or is it obstruction of justice not to.

    ipse
    The peaceable exercising of your rights, in NY state, could (will?) be very hazardous to your health and future well being.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  16. #16
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,881
    ya, WW, et al., that is one of the reasons i asked, additionally within the last month a very close local NC friend was involved in a out of the blue, LE standing in the middle of the rural road stopping traffic asking for 'identification' (note i wasn't there but my friend, a former deputy, stated those are the words the LE used!). my friend asked if this was a traffic stop ~ "NO just show me some identification!" apparently, this dance went on for several more choruses until the LE ordered him out of the vehicle, turned him around and handcuffed him, of course, for everyone's safety. during this portion of the dance my friend changed his mantra to get your SGT down here immediately!!!

    SGT arrived, immediately walked over and talked to my friend before his officer, did a verbal exclamation of "EXCUSE me, my officer did what?" apparently the SGT turned to the officer who immediately got a sheepish forlorn look, and stated: UNCUFF this man ~ now! then the SGT went into the apologize mode saying he will attend to his officer's training of handling these kind of situations since, point to the officer and state, apparently my officer failed to remember we are a not a show state!

    my friend believes the SGT's distress was genuine and not rehearsed per se., tho it is difficult to tell sometimes since they are such good actors.

    my reference is the very verbal, angry, phone call i received immediately after this encounter and subsequent conversations to include my insisting IA be contacted or a letter be generated. being former blue, he is hesitant to pursue either course.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-16-2015 at 11:32 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,278
    They do it because the sheep don't stand up. Though if in a commercial vehicle the stops are legal, as far as I know. Something about the commerce clause.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,201
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    They do it because the sheep don't stand up. Though if in a commercial vehicle the stops are legal, as far as I know. Something about the commerce clause.
    More to due with commercial motor vehicle traffic being a highly regulated industry.

    The commerce comes in to play when discussing the federal motor carrier regulations.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  19. #19
    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    425
    How many homes have been searched without warrant or owners permission, a.k.a. Boston bomber searches.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    missouri
    Posts
    497
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Just to clarify for other readers, I definitely don't recommend enforcing your rights along the side of the road. Invoke them, refuse consent to searches, etc., but don't use force.

    Assuming you lose the fist-fight and/or tasering, you've put the cop in the position of losing his job and a lawsuit, or lying about what happened in whichever way will make it look like he was legal and you were obstructing or assaulting him. Backed into a corner, what do you think the cop will do? Lie? Or, tell the truth, lose his job, and lose a lawsuit?

    If you're man enough to take the risks, I won't say its your basic human right to defend yourself and your rights with force if need be.

    However, you might also consider recording everything, and behaving like an oh-so polite and slightly fearful victim. The cop will look that much worse for mistreating you.

    You can enforce your rights without use of physical force, one way would be having a lawyer present, or recording the verbal engagement with the officer, and submitting a copy for review by internal affairs, as well as a copy to a lawyer who will represent you for civil rights violations.

    Many officers seem to forget they signed an affidavit prior to becoming an officer, and if an attorney had any balls they'd sue the officer for not fulfilling the terms of the affidavit.. Aka breach of contract.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    3,277
    Exercise your rights in a peaceable, humble matter and always have a video and voice recorder in your possession...

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Exercise your rights in a peaceable, humble matter and always have a video and voice recorder in your possession...

    Regards

    CCJ
    +1

    Unless you're a modern-day John Lilburne or William Penn. Then, give 'em _ell.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,881
    thanks for the inputs, bottom like play nice with the grumpy LEs since they are lacking sleep and 3 squares. oh and keep recording and video'g rolling.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    This Just In From ABC News

    I heard this just a little while ago on an ABC affiliate radio station.

    ABC reported that a local resident of Friendship, NY said that local residents are being required to show ID. The man-hunt is focused in Friendship after someone reported seeing a couple men who could be the escapees.

    Really? You have to show ID to prove you live there? To prove you're not one of the escapees? As though ever cop and federal agent in the hunt hasn't been shown photographs of the escapees. Suuuuuure.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    here nc
    Posts
    6,881
    citizen, et al., IMHO the nice police are traipsing down a dangerous slope and setting a precedent I am not please with. I mean, sure the nice LE have a foto of the escapees and if you are young, black, Asian, Hispanic, a woman, four years older than water, who do not in anyway meet the foto's image, shouldn't have to show an id.

    maybe, just maybe, I might concede the nice LE might have a slight RAS to ask someone for a foto id who could resemble one of the escapee's fotos.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •