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State of California Concedes Second Amendment Extends Outside the Home

press1280

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
399
Location
Eastern Panhandle,WV ,
The NRA, SAF, and CalGuns has repeatedly stated in their briefs and in oral arguments that California can ban Open Carry, that's all we need to know. Their motivations, even if they were moral ones are irrelevant to their opposition to Open Carry, their goal is to preserve California's Open Carry bans (and banning Open Carry in favor of concealed carry is not a moral goal).

Here is the link to the SAF, CalGuns filings in Richards v. Prieto ->http://michellawyers.com/guncasetracker/richardsvprieto/
Here is the link to the CRPA (NRA) filings in Peruta v. San Diego -> http://michellawyers.com/guncasetracker/perutavsandiego/

The intellectually lazy won't read the briefs. The apologists will search for "Yes, but..." passages.

Honestly folks, isn't there anyone at OpenCarry.org who supports Open Carry?


"[A] right to carry arms openly: "This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations."" District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008) at 2809

I actually support both, and I believe both the NRA and SAF would be happy with CA going meaningful open carry tomorrow. I think the cases you cite like Chandler, although supporting an OC right, were the first step putting us on the road to extreme regulation. I think we're better off going closer to the founding, like Bliss v. Commonwealth,"But to be in conflict with the constitution, it is not essential that the act should contain a prohibition against bearing arms in every possible form--it is the right to bear arms in defence of the citizens and the state, that is secured by the constitution, and whatever restrains the full and complete exercise of that right, though not an entire destruction of it, is forbidden by the explicit language of the constitution."
 

California Right To Carry

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
462
Location
United States
I actually support both, and I believe both the NRA and SAF would be happy with CA going meaningful open carry tomorrow. I think the cases you cite like Chandler, although supporting an OC right, were the first step putting us on the road to extreme regulation. I think we're better off going closer to the founding, like Bliss v. Commonwealth,"But to be in conflict with the constitution, it is not essential that the act should contain a prohibition against bearing arms in every possible form--it is the right to bear arms in defence of the citizens and the state, that is secured by the constitution, and whatever restrains the full and complete exercise of that right, though not an entire destruction of it, is forbidden by the explicit language of the constitution."

The "constitution" the Bliss Court referred to was the Kentucky State Constitution, not the Federal Constitution. Bliss challenged his convictions as "eing in conflict with the twenty-third section of the tenth article of the constitution of this state." Id at 91.

I very nearly always cite Chandler and in the past Nunn. I gave up citing Nunn because there are Kool-Aid drinkers who read it to say that states can ban Open Carry. Nunn and Chandler are the two cases which SCOTUS said in Heller perfectly captures the meaning of the Second Amendment of the Federal Constitution and there is absolutely no way that Chandler can be construed as anything but an affirmation of the Second Amendment Open Carry right and a categorical rejection of concealed carry being anything but criminal and cowardly.

As to the SAF and NRA being "happy" with Open Carry, the ink wasn't dry on Heller and McDonald, respectively, before the SAF and NRA began telling Federal courts that states can ban Open Carry.

Even if one were to consume a sufficient amount of mind altering substances to entertain the thought that the NRA/SAF/CalGuns.nuts would file an Open Carry lawsuit it would be to enshrine a permit requirement for Open Carry. And since courts aren't allowed to write laws, they would have to do so in a state like Maryland or New Jersey which requires a permit to carry a handgun, openly or concealed.

Oh wait! They already did, and lost.
 

rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
Honestly folks, isn't there anyone at OpenCarry.org who supports Open Carry?


"[A] right to carry arms openly: "This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations."" District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008) at 2809

I'm sure there is. But usually it's only within the confines of invalid laws that contradict the Constitution. D.C V Heller is more than enough to nullify every single so-called 'law' requiring permits, prohibiting carry in certain places and many more. Basically that statement alone is affirmation of nationwide constitutional carry. We actually have it. But there are not enough people to actually do it and succeed in many places around the country
 

press1280

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
399
Location
Eastern Panhandle,WV ,
I'm sure there is. But usually it's only within the confines of invalid laws that contradict the Constitution. D.C V Heller is more than enough to nullify every single so-called 'law' requiring permits, prohibiting carry in certain places and many more. Basically that statement alone is affirmation of nationwide constitutional carry. We actually have it. But there are not enough people to actually do it and succeed in many places around the country

I would agree with this. The Federal judiciary is openly HOSTILE to the 2A in whatever form. Although resistance was to be expected after Heller, I'm sure no one expected this. Just as an example, en banc is supposed to be an extremely rare occurrence, yet I can count too many instances where it's been used to erase a pro-2A opinion, even ones that were pretty narrow and one occasion (Nordyke) where the county won and no one appealed.
 

press1280

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
399
Location
Eastern Panhandle,WV ,
The "constitution" the Bliss Court referred to was the Kentucky State Constitution, not the Federal Constitution. Bliss challenged his convictions as "eing in conflict with the twenty-third section of the tenth article of the constitution of this state." Id at 91.

I very nearly always cite Chandler and in the past Nunn. I gave up citing Nunn because there are Kool-Aid drinkers who read it to say that states can ban Open Carry. Nunn and Chandler are the two cases which SCOTUS said in Heller perfectly captures the meaning of the Second Amendment of the Federal Constitution and there is absolutely no way that Chandler can be construed as anything but an affirmation of the Second Amendment Open Carry right and a categorical rejection of concealed carry being anything but criminal and cowardly.

As to the SAF and NRA being "happy" with Open Carry, the ink wasn't dry on Heller and McDonald, respectively, before the SAF and NRA began telling Federal courts that states can ban Open Carry.

Even if one were to consume a sufficient amount of mind altering substances to entertain the thought that the NRA/SAF/CalGuns.nuts would file an Open Carry lawsuit it would be to enshrine a permit requirement for Open Carry. And since courts aren't allowed to write laws, they would have to do so in a state like Maryland or New Jersey which requires a permit to carry a handgun, openly or concealed.

Oh wait! They already did, and lost.


The KY Constitution (back then) had almost identical language as the 2A. Now, indeed, that's what they're citing; but I have to believe there's no material difference between the understanding of each. I think SCOTUS will probably have to look to the state RKBA-equivalents if they are to address public carry; there's simply not much to rely on since Nunn and Chandler are but 2 cases referring specifically to the 2A and other SCOTUS cases (before Heller/McDonald) just don't address it in a meaningful way. As the CCW being "cowardly," this is simply BS thinking by 19th and early 20th century courts. Millions carry concealed today with no intent on "unmanly assasinations

The NRA has helped on legislation this year in both TX (open carry) and WV/ME(permitless carry). They're not pro-permit, anti-OC as you suggest. You may not agree with the strategy they and the SAF are taking, which is fine, but you're making them out to be no more than Chuck Shumer antis.
 

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
Grapeshot, I notice that you deleted my post but not ConditionThree's post? How about you set a rule that ConditionThree will not comment on any of my posts and I won't comment on any of his. I am the only one with a lawsuit seeking to restore Open Carry to California. ConditionThree has been trolling my posts going back years.

Not only is ConditionThree a member of CalGuns, a plaintiff in the Richards v. Prieto concealed carry lawsuit, a lawsuit in which its attorney (Alan Gura) has argued that states can ban Open Carry since 2009, ConditionThree has links to CalGuns in his tagline.

Why do you allow members of an organization dedicated to preserving California's Open Carry bans to post on an Open Carry website?

The extent of your protestations here is remarkable, considering how confident you seem to be in your beliefs. Have I become such a boogeyman, that I should be compelled not to question the preeminent authority on open carry in the golden state?

As for being a 'member' of anything - I was a contributing member here at OCDO before joining Calgun.NET which is a commercial site. I also encourage others to support the Calguns Foundation, the non-profit that funds litigation to advance the 2A in California. Is it because you must compete for the same donations to fund your pro se litigation, that you object to anyone who supports them for having an opinion? If so, you are not as secure as your internet personae would lead on.

Honest efforts to engage you are met with hostility and hysterics that undermine your credibility and you have earned your reputation as someone who does not work or play well with others - dating back beyond the usurpation of South Bay Open Carry. I'm not sure if having a dialogue is even possible with you based upon your outburst, but if anyone is disseminating incorrect information, the gun community has a responsibility to respond to protect gun owners. That is something we all have to set our pride aside for.
 

California Right To Carry

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
462
Location
United States
The KY Constitution (back then) had almost identical language as the 2A. Now, indeed, that's what they're citing; but I have to believe there's no material difference between the understanding of each.

The material difference is fundamental to the way our system of Federalism works. The Kentucky Supreme Court has the last word on its interpretation of its state constitution and the US Supreme Court has the last word on its interpretation of the Federal Constitution.

I think SCOTUS will probably have to look to the state RKBA-equivalents if they are to address public carry; there's simply not much to rely on since Nunn and Chandler are but 2 cases referring specifically to the 2A and other SCOTUS cases (before Heller/McDonald) just don't address it in a meaningful way.

Nunn and Chandler are the two, and only two, cases SCOTUS said perfectly captured the meaning of the Second Amendment right. You can belittle the Heller decision all you like but the 9th Circuit, as has every other Federal Circuit, have upheld restrictions on concealed carry. The 7th saying flat out that states can ban concealed carry as per Heller and the 10th saying flat out that concealed carry is not a right, as per Heller.

As the CCW being "cowardly," this is simply BS thinking by 19th and early 20th century courts. Millions carry concealed today with no intent on "unmanly assasinations

It isn't just cowardice. It is a fact that concealed carry fails to give fair notice to the public that a person is armed even if the person does not have any criminal intent. Intent makes the weapon no less dangerous.

"The policy underlying the prohibition against concealed weapons is based on the protection of those persons who may come into contact with a weapon bearer. If a weapon is not concealed, one may take notice of the weapon and its owner and govern oneself accordingly, but no such opportunity for cautious behavior or self-preservation exists for one encountering the bearer of a concealed weapon. In light of this policy, the question whether a particular weapon was concealed should be considered from the point of view of one approaching the location of the weapon, and the intent of the defendant as to concealment should not be considered, since a defendant's innocent intent does not make a concealed weapon any more visible." People v. Mitchell, 209 Cal. App. 4th 1364 - Cal: Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate Dist., 1st Div. (2012) at 1371.

You'll note that this isn't "thinking by 19th and early 20th century courts" BS or otherwise.

The NRA has helped on legislation this year in both TX (open carry) and WV/ME(permitless carry). They're not pro-permit, anti-OC as you suggest. You may not agree with the strategy they and the SAF are taking, which is fine, but you're making them out to be no more than Chuck Shumer antis.

Here is a brief excerpt from the retraction of the NRA's alert which called people who openly carry firearms "weirdos" in which the NRA spokesman, Chris Cox, flat out states that the NRA supports Open Carry. -> https://youtu.be/WqeVj7A3bwg

Here is a brief exchange between 9th Circuit Judge Fletcher and NRA lawyer Paul Clement during the en banc arguments in Peruta v. San Diego where the NRA lawyer says that states can ban Open Carry -> https://youtu.be/MRgTihlLOHk

Here is the appellant opening brief in Peruta v. San Diego wherein NRA lawyer Chuck Michel argues do defend the 1967 Black Panther Loaded Open Carry ban (PC 12031), a ban the NRA helped write, and also argues in support of California's Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995, the overturning of which the NRA says would be "drastic." -> http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Peruta-Opening-Brief.pdf

Feel free to respond as you wish. The NRA lies and I am tired of hearing from apologists for the NRA. I am putting you on my ignore list so I won't have to be bothered by you any longer.

NRA Suckers.jpg

NO CCW FOR YOU.jpg

"[A] right to carry arms openly: "This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations."" District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008) at 2809
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
It isn't just cowardice. It is a fact that concealed carry fails to give fair notice to the public that a person is armed even if the person does not have any criminal intent. Intent makes the weapon no less dangerous.

"The policy underlying the prohibition against concealed weapons is based on the protection of those persons who may come into contact with a weapon bearer. If a weapon is not concealed, one may take notice of the weapon and its owner and govern oneself accordingly, but no such opportunity for cautious behavior or self-preservation exists for one encountering the bearer of a concealed weapon. In light of this policy, the question whether a particular weapon was concealed should be considered from the point of view of one approaching the location of the weapon, and the intent of the defendant as to concealment should not be considered, since a defendant's innocent intent does not make a concealed weapon any more visible." People v. Mitchell, 209 Cal. App. 4th 1364 - Cal: Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate Dist., 1st Div. (2012) at 1371.

You'll note that this isn't "thinking by 19th and early 20th century courts" BS or otherwise.

It strikes me as the usual, anti-RKBA, anti-self-defense, hoplophobic thinking of far too many elites regardless of the year. It may well be binding precedence. But it is still utter BS. And bigoted, phobic BS to boot.

Exactly what danger does a peacefully possessed weapon pose that the general public need be aware of it? And what action are they to take? A syringe full of insulin can be just as deadly, and a whole lot quieter. Shall we require diabetics to advertise to the whole world that they are carrying needles and prescription drugs?

Going back to the old urban legends about boxers and martial artists having to "register their hands as deadly weapons", shall we require trained fighters to wear some insignia of their training so the public may take "notice of the weapon and its owner and govern [themselves] accordingly." I know, let's require everyone who any kind of weapon to wear a special gold star on their label. Homosexuals can be required to wear a pink triangle. Fortunately for the phobics and bigots, those of African and Asian descent can usually be identified as being different and dangerous merely by looking at them. Ditto for most who subscribe to unpopular Middle Eastern religious traditions. :disgusted:

Slovak Jews with Star of David.jpg


gayholocaust.jpg


Dangerous people those Jews, Gays, and Gun Carriers. Best make the public aware of their presence in all cases.

The California court is taking its lead from the most despicable of precedents when it comes for forcing peaceable men and women to ID themselves as being part of an unpopular minority in the name of the rest of the public being able to "take notice" of their presence.

Not a surprise. When we pushed State preemption against gun bans at Utah government colleges, the hoplophobes suggested that those who wanted to carry guns should at least be required to do so openly so everyone would know who to avoid. IOW, who should be socially shunned and "encouraged" not to exercise their rights to an effective self-defense. Unspoken, of course, was also so that professors would know who to give poor grades to.

If a man wishes to OC, or be "out of the closet" with his sexuality, wear his religion on his sleeve, or let the whole world know of his medical conditions, so be it. Short of engaging in public indecency, I respect a man's right to live his life as openly as he desires.

I very much support a right to OC. I do not believe their is any legitimate obligation to do so.

(I do believe we should obey laws while working to change those who find offensive.)

But since the SCOTUS has found a right to privacy within the penumbra of the Constitution, I think that ought to apply at least equally to the peaceful possession of firearms for self-defense.

Any suggestion that the public has some "right" to know whether I'm armed or not is just so much legalese cover for infringing our rights. As Clayton Cramer documents rather ably in his "Racist Roots of Gun Control" essay, most limits on the public possession of carrying arms including concealed possession were directed entirely at slaves, freed slaves, and other "undesirable" minorities.

Recognizing and working within existing precedence is one thing. Upholding it as a worthy ideal is quite another.

Charles
 
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