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Thread: Charleston church shooting: 9 killed

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Charleston church shooting: 9 killed

    Eight died at the scene in downtown Charleston, South Carolina; a ninth died at a hospital.

    Authorities are calling the incident a hate crime.

    The gunman is still at large, police say.

    Charleston, South Carolina (CNN)[Latest developments]

    • The person who shot and killed nine people at Charleston's Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church was there for about an hour, attending a meeting with the eventual victims, before he began shooting, Charleston police Chief Greg Mullen said Thursday morning.
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/

    In South Carolina guns are banned in churches without the specific permission of a church official. End result is that few if any permit carriers would be carrying in church - no one would be able to stop the carnage. Victims were fish in a barrel - sad and totally unacceptable.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-18-2015 at 07:52 AM.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Couldn't add second link to the above.

    Here 'tis -

    http://wtvr.com/2015/06/18/dylann-st...ing-to-report/
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    The media seems to be making an issue of the patches on his jacket. They (media) seem to believe these are the badges of racism. Sad that they target his clothing.

    Were his drug arrests before his birthday in april? If so, that would make him a prohibited person, not eligible to receive a firearm,eh? Was it an illegal transfer, and the individual who gave it to him gets arrested for it? The possibilities are endless, I better get popcorn.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Thanks for the Info GRAPE. I was wondering if the church had been a GFZ. So it is by law. So that means it is the state's fault for this massacre. Interesting

    wonder when SC is going to catch up with the rest of America
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    unfortunately.............

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Constitutional/Open Carry? It will never while the P4P hegemony persists in South Carolina. Note that one of the victims, the Reverend Senator Clementa Pinckney was a powerful voice against liberalization of civil rights to the RKABA.
    were he still alive, he might think differently of it now. Sad, but true. Let it be a lesson to others. You need to be able to defend yourself, period.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    ...Note that one of the victims, the Reverend Senator Clementa Pinckney was a powerful voice against liberalization of civil rights to the RKABA.
    Where can we get a cite for that to use it elsewhere?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    In the middle of an article is this an example of the limited vision of a political leader who maybe, just maybe, has had his eyes opened.

    "It is senseless, it is unfathomable that somebody in today's society would walk into a church when people are having a prayer meeting and take their lives."
    "This is a most unspeakable and heartbreaking tragedy," said Mayor Joe Riley. "People in prayer on Wednesday evening. A ritual of coming together, praying and worshiping God, and to have an awful person come in and shoot them is inexplicable. Obviously, the most intolerable and unbelievable act possible."
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/29347341/...d-in-shelby-nc

    Now the question remains, will he and others look to pass more friutless laws that only restrict the law abiding OR will they have a true epiphany and let good people be armed so as to have the chance to defend themselves, their loved ones, and their friends/neighbors from such senseless acts?

    While a gun is no magic talisman that wards off evil, it is a great potential game changer for honest people when faced with immediate life or death situations that no law will prevent. I have a cell phone, but when bullets come my way, it will not, it must not, be the first tool for which I reach. The object being to stop the individual(s) from taking the lives of innocents.

    I am reminded of the New Life Church story (#4) where someone armed stopped/limited the carnage in a church - only possible because they were armed. There are others - I have personal knowledge of the Golden Market (#6) event too.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthi...it#.flnwEvk2EE
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ... I have a cell phone, but when bullets come my way, it will not, it must not, be the first tool for which I reach. ...
    How dare you delay the arrival of the guys that have to draw the chalk outlines!
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by RK3369 View Post
    were he still alive, he might think differently of it now.
    Possibly, but--knowing nothing of him and just speaking of people generally--unlikely.

    It is human nature to see things through the lens of our preconceived biases and beliefs. We here see this horrific crime as evidence supporting our view that good men need to be armed in self defense.

    But those who believe that "easy access to guns" is the cause of criminal violence or at least a major facilitator of it, are likely to view this crime as one more evidence that they are right. If they could just get rid of the guns, such crimes would not occur.

    We all know the logically problem with that line of thinking. But most people who are anti-gun hold that position due to emotion, not logic. Don't expect logic to over emotion very often. "Reason is slave to passion."

    Obviously, the gun haters including Obama won't let this "tragedy go to waste" as he is already calling for a reevaluation of our gun culture. We need to be prepared to respond on the other side.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 06-18-2015 at 09:36 PM.

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    [QUOTE=utbagpiper;2148244][QUOTE=RK3369;2148214]were he still alive, he might think differently of it now.

    Possibly, but--knowing nothing of him and just speaking of people generally--unlikely.

    It is human nature to see things through the lens of our preconceived biases and beliefs. We here see this horrific crime as evidence supporting our view that good men need to be armed in self defense.

    But those who believe that "easy access to guns" is the cause of criminal violence or at least a major facilitator of it, are likely to view this crime as one more evidence that they are right. If they could just get rid of the guns, such crimes would not occur.

    We all know the logically problem with that line of thinking. But most people who are anti-gun hold that position due to emotion, not logic. Don't expect logic to over emotion very often. "Reason is slave to passion."

    Obviously, the gun haters including Obama won't let this "tragedy go to waste" as he is already calling for a reevaluation of our gun culture. We need to be prepared to respond on the other side.

    Charles
    +1
    Obama the anti that he is, stated, it is just to easy to get a gun these days... I say not that easy for law abiding citizens to get a gun these days... I know some LAC in Jersey waiting over 2 plus years for a permit...
    Only criminals have easy access to weapons and easy access to unarmed folks due in part to all the anti laws and regulations..

    This was yet another horrible event in a world full of sick crazy people, now we need to make sure that the not so sick crazy people can defend themselves and their loved ones against the crazies..

    I say be trained, armed, and ready for danger where ever you go, for a crazy may be around to do you and your family grave harm...

    My prayers go out to the families however prayers don't deter bullets, even in a church..

    My .02

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    What a terrible incident. I read that he reloaded 5 times. 5 times!
    I can only imagine the terror these people went through. I wonder if any of them wished for a gun as Mr Crazy reloaded.
    **** GFZs.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I've read conflicting stories as to whether the shooter passed a background check to obtain the pistol or his father gifted it to him.

    Maybe someone has better Google-fu skills than I do.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I've read conflicting stories as to whether the shooter passed a background check to obtain the pistol or his father gifted it to him.

    Maybe someone has better Google-fu skills than I do.
    The only reports I've read said his dad gave/bought him one for his 21st birthday.
    Last edited by b0neZ; 06-19-2015 at 10:40 AM.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    So is this one of those odd cases where some clerk somewhere didn't file proper paperwork to show that the kid was disqualified when his 4473 went through? Was lying on the 4473 good enough to pass the background check?

    I'm curious about the facts surrounding the purchase and how he was able to obtain the weapon.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    He's confessed to wanting to start a race war.

    http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...psgad0ccax.jpg

    (Sorry, OCDO says it exceeds my quota.)

    Very possible the family did try to get him some help but may have given up after the system threw too many obstacles in their way. Much like the Newtown shooter's mom. Or te Va Tech shooter's parents. Or the .....

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    church shooting in SC

    By now I'm sure you've all heard about the latest massacre in a "gun-free" zone,
    this time a church in SC.

    I hadn't heard ANYTHING in the media about whether or not it was legal to carry
    in a church in SC, so I went to http://www.handgunlaw.us/
    clicked in the SC area to bring up their PDF http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/southcarolina.pdf
    and paged through looking for prohibited places.
    On page 4 it lists churches, unless the citizen has permission from the church.

    Then I clicked the link provided to go look at the SC law directly on their .gov site.
    http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.php
    and whaddayaknow, but they're right!
    See 23-31-215(M)(8)

    Wonder why none of the media have mentioned this?
    I mean, it's so difficult to find reliable & accurate information...
    Took me, a normal citizen, maybe 3 minutes.
    A trained reporter shouldn't even take that long.

    They couldn't, oh, I don't know... have an agenda or something, could they?

    Feel free to post these links on any news site/story.
    We need to get the word out, before the ghouls start dancing in the blood of these
    latest victims, pushing for more laws.

  18. #18
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    hindsight being what it is, but another common thread flows through the NGZ mass shootings starting back in Columbine HS...

    very few instances are reported where those being shot have attacked the shooter...

    in last night's shooting i can understand why the 87yo and 70yo women wouldn't be able to rush the shooter, but early reports states Roof reloaded 5 times.

    it is a common theme in these each of these mass shooting instances which truly befuddles me...

    grapes example of using personal firearms notwithstanding.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-19-2015 at 05:51 PM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    intentional thread drift

    Did the Solicitor just befoul this case to the point that it can never be brought to trial by a jury?

    Letting the families and friends of the victims express their feelings about the shooter - not about his being let out on bond - IMHO has poisoned the jury pool not just in Charleston, or even in SC, but probably across the entire country.

    Either the fix was in or it was the grossest stupidity. My vote is for stupidity.

    Giving the families/friends a forum to express their grief and their willingness to forgive the sinner is good. Deciding to do it as part of a bond hearing? Not so much.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Did the Solicitor just befoul this case to the point that it can never be brought to trial by a jury?

    Letting the families and friends of the victims express their feelings about the shooter - not about his being let out on bond - IMHO has poisoned the jury pool not just in Charleston, or even in SC, but probably across the entire country.

    Either the fix was in or it was the grossest stupidity. My vote is for stupidity.

    Giving the families/friends a forum to express their grief and their willingness to forgive the sinner is good. Deciding to do it as part of a bond hearing? Not so much.

    skid, ya'l a book learn'd person...can you explain the stat chart at 1.20 into the video???
    I be mighty confused as the numbers doesn't add up to 100% http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/friend...or-six-months/

    stay safe.
    skid, the national news this evening stated the practice is allowed by SC statutes?? no I have no cite nor inclination to delve into their statutes.

    on this vein, I am aghast the nation, from the president down has proclaimed the young man guilty to the point the governor wants him given the death penalty.

    finally, the national news proudly proclaimed the young man was put in the next cell from the nice ex policeman who shot the motorist in the back.

    back to our regularly scheduled broadcast of coverage of SC's state flags flying at half mast, except the confederate flag flying over the capitol building which can't be lowered due to state statutes.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-19-2015 at 08:42 PM.
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Solus -

    SC state law may "allow" for it, but it's going to be a great point of appeal if they give him a jury trial.

    Of course, he has made several admissions of doing the shootings. If he enters a guilty plea the judge may be able to hand down the sentence without a jury recommendation. Just not sure if SC needs a depravity finding for the death penalty, and if so whether or not the judge can do that alone.

    Whoever wrote this
    skid, ya'l a book learn'd person...can you explain the stat chart at 1.20 into the video???
    I be mighty confused as the numbers doesn't add up to 100% http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/friend...or-six-months/
    What stat start where?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Solus -

    SC state law may "allow" for it, but it's going to be a great point of appeal if they give him a jury trial.

    Of course, he has made several admissions of doing the shootings. If he enters a guilty plea the judge may be able to hand down the sentence without a jury recommendation. Just not sure if SC needs a depravity finding for the death penalty, and if so whether or not the judge can do that alone.

    Whoever wrote this


    What stat start where?

    stay safe.
    skid, apparently the link got OBE by CBS...will look for it...

    ipse
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Rank solipsism! The Confederate Flag has not flown over the South Carolina State House since it was taken down on 1 July 2000 and installed above the monument to the Confederacy.

    I witnessed the lowering and the raising while legally armed, and returned quite a number of times to see that the Confederate Flag was not again raised over the State House. The flag is gone from the State House, the bullet pockmarks remain, and Southerons will never forget.

    I cherish my Grassroots Gun Rights award pin. The Defender, November 2002 page 2
    http://www.scfirearms.org/TheDefende...02November.pdf
    forgive me nightmare, darn that pesky CBS article's photo misleading this solitary individual that the confederate flag was on the state capitol instead of the capitol grounds as the article states...quote: On Friday, NAACP President and CEO Rev. Cornell William Brooks called the slayings an act of "racial terrorism" and said the Confederate flag flying on the South Carolina Capitol grounds needs to come down. unquote
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-ca...ston-massacre/

    numerous other pages of cites are provided for your reading pleasure...

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...apitol+lowered

    shame the organization has apparently passed from greatness since your award was bestowed as evidenced from this http://www.scfirearms.org/ cite from its once great spot it held in 02.

    now you may put your pretty mementos and precious memories away until the next time you believe they are needed!!
    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-20-2015 at 09:33 AM. Reason: fat fingers this morn and wrong use of 'a' 'o'
    "He who pays the piper calls the tunes..." (OBE as Grape called melody!!)

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  24. #24
    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Amazing that this case is practically solving itself. Who needs investigators when everything is already available in nice little packages? Manifesto, check. Confederate flag, check. Confession, check. Racist ramblings, check. Apartheid badges, check. Picture of suspect holding the gun, check. Terrorism, check. Yup, case closed. Lock him up and start banning guns and confederate flags.

    Maybe this case really is that simple, a racist, terrorist, confederate flag-waving, tea party member, gun loving killer. Or maybe...

    Gawwd, I am starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. Where is my tin foil?

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    skid, the national news this evening stated the practice is allowed by SC statutes?? no I have no cite nor inclination to delve into their statutes.

    on this vein, I am aghast the nation, from the president down has proclaimed the young man guilty to the point the governor wants him given the death penalty.

    finally, the national news proudly proclaimed the young man was put in the next cell from the nice ex policeman who shot the motorist in the back.

    back to our regularly scheduled broadcast of coverage of SC's state flags flying at half mast, except the confederate flag flying over the capitol building which can't be lowered due to state statutes.

    ipse
    Allowing family of victims to talk at a bond hearing, and the assumptions of guilt are right up there with what Charlottesville PD (CPD) did to Jesse Matthews during the search for Hannah Graham.

    When the security video clips were initially put out, showing a large, black male in Ms. Graham's company, the CPD issued a statement saying they wanted to find and talk to the man in the video because they believed he was the last person to see her alive. Of course, that was tantamount to a murder accusation. And, they didn't even have a body, yet. They started walking that back the next day or second day. By the third day, it was totally tamed down, the murder implication removed from further police statements. From that point on, nothing the government said was trustworthy--the PD had just put itself in a corner, and created a huge incentive to convict Matthews by any means fair or foul.*

    Unless Roof has publicly admitted to the murders on camera or in court, I'm taking anything the media or government says with a bucket of salt grains.



    *I would have made a run for Galveston, too, if I saw somebody resembling myself in a security video clip accompanied by a cop statement that I was believed to be the last person to see the missing person alive. It didn't take me long to decide I'm probably not stopping to help any young ladies or any other age ladies. If something happens to them after I leave them, but there was a security camera that recorded me in their presence... One thing that really raised my hair was the security camera clip of Hannah Graham running. But, nobody was chasing her! For all anybody knows, she was running to catch a bus, or try to hail a cab that was letting someone off further up the block. And, the PD accompanied that video with other video clips of the large black male with Ms. Graham. You know darned good and well that if the clip of her running showed a large black male running in the same direction, even two minutes later, it would have been released.
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-20-2015 at 11:34 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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