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Thread: Federal Court decision allows detention for open carry..... This must be countered.

  1. #1
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    Federal Court decision allows detention for open carry..... This must be countered.

    http://thefreethoughtproject.com/fed...ying-firearms/

    I no longer live in Michigan....but you really need to gather groups of folks to open carry in these cities. They can't possibly do this to everyone and if they want to be stupid.....it will cost them thousands to detain and check everyone!
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 07-16-2015 at 10:02 PM.

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    Regular Member MontanaResident's Avatar
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    You can open carry or you can wear camo, but you cannot open carry and wear camo. I expect a judge to knock this one into the ground hard.

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    It is the equipment not the demeanor.

    (Snip from the article)
    In the most convoluted of logic, U.S. District Judge Janet Neff claimed that officers do have such authority. Neff wrote that the officers were “justified in following up on the 9-1-1 call and using swift action to determine whether [Deffert’s] behavior gave rise to a need to protect or preserve life … in the neighborhood.”
    ............

    I'll bet "Janet" would feel different if she were detained for what appeared to be solicitation. After all she does have the equipment.

    This is a perfect example of why the judge you vote for is just as important as the legislator you vote for.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    ^^^^ That
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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    DELAWARE V. PROUSE--An officer CANNOT detain someone without reasonable suspicion of crime.

    US V. DEBERRY--(7th Circuit) The presence of a firearm where legal to possess, cannot by itself be reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

    Terry V. Ohio--Three criteria must be met in order to disarm an individual;
    1)The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is armed.<--- open carry is legal, no crime here.
    2)The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is dangerous; and<---- wearing camo and singing are legal acts, being odd is not a crime or dangerous.
    3)The officer must have a reasonable suspicion that the individual has committed or is about to commit a crime<---open carry, singing, wearing camo are legal. Odd behavior maybe, reasonable suspicion, NO.

    This ruling is worthless and will not hold up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    (Snip from the article)

    This is a perfect example of why the judge you vote for is just as important as the legislator you vote for.

    ~Whitney
    We don't get to vote for feral judges. They're president appointed and senate confirmed.

    You voted for/against her in 2004 when George Walker PatriotAct ran for reelection.

    "Janet T. Neff (born 1945) is a District Judge for the United States District Court for the Western District of Michigan. She joined the court in 2007 after being nominated by President George W. Bush."
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-22-2015 at 04:50 AM. Reason: restored - explanation accepted

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    (Snip from the article)
    In the most convoluted of logic, U.S. District Judge Janet Neff claimed that officers do have such authority. Neff wrote that the officers were “justified in following up on the 9-1-1 call and using swift action to determine whether [Deffert’s] behavior gave rise to a need to protect or preserve life … in the neighborhood.”
    ............

    I'll bet "Janet" would feel different if she were detained for what appeared to be solicitation. After all she does have the equipment.

    This is a perfect example of why the judge you vote for is just as important as the legislator you vote for.

    ~Whitney
    Great post
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    All politics is local

    Quote Originally Posted by taxman View Post
    We don't get to vote for feral judges. They're president appointed and senate confirmed.

    You voted for/against her in 2004 when George Walker PatriotAct ran for reelection.

    "Janet T. Neff (born 1945) is a District Judge for the United States District Court for the Western District of Michigan. She joined the court in 2007 after being nominated by President George W. Bush."

    You won't get any argument from me regarding appointment of Judges. My point being they all start off somewhere and it is incumbent upon us to make sure we keep the good ones and eject the bad ones.

    ~Whitney
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-22-2015 at 04:51 AM. Reason: restored quote edit
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    "Last edited by Grapeshot; Today at 07:02 AM. Reason: Edited violation of rule #6 "

    Oops, managed to run afoul of moderation in the first 24 hours after I finally registered.
    The funny thing is, you didn't delete the Rule 6 personal attack from my post. When I say "George Walker PatriotAct" I mean it with the utmost in personal scorn. I was trying to be nice about it though, so I spelled his middle name with an "L".

    I never use more than five letters to spell the word "federal" when referring to our illustrious government. That's not an attack on Judge Neff, it's just my way of pointing out that the animal known as fedgov has slipped its constitutional leash, is no longer under human control, and has gone feral.
    Last edited by taxman; 06-19-2015 at 06:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    DELAWARE V. PROUSE--An officer CANNOT detain someone without reasonable suspicion of crime.

    US V. DEBERRY--(7th Circuit) The presence of a firearm where legal to possess, cannot by itself be reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

    Terry V. Ohio--Three criteria must be met in order to disarm an individual;
    1)The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is armed.<--- open carry is legal, no crime here.
    2)The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is dangerous; and<---- wearing camo and singing are legal acts, being odd is not a crime or dangerous.
    3)The officer must have a reasonable suspicion that the individual has committed or is about to commit a crime<---open carry, singing, wearing camo are legal. Odd behavior maybe, reasonable suspicion, NO.

    This ruling is worthless and will not hold up.
    If it does hold up we may have a nice vehicle to SCOTUS, see also US v. Black 4th circuit

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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    If it does hold up we may have a nice vehicle to SCOTUS, see also US v. Black 4th circuit
    Not every vehicle takes you where you expect to go. See also Jackson v SanFrancisco:
    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/06/08/...n-storage-law/

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    I suspect this won't be the last say on this matter...

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    Folks, the headline is completely incorrect.

    This ruling is for this one specific case, period.

    They ruled that the defendant singing Disney Kids Movie tunes, suggest to the LEO that he was some kind of a nut case carrying a firearm, and wearing camo and doing so in the vicinity of a church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taxman View Post
    We don't get to vote for feral judges. They're president appointed and senate confirmed.

    You voted for/against her in 2004 when George Walker PatriotAct ran for reelection.

    "Janet T. Neff (born 1945) is a District Judge for the United States District Court for the Western District of Michigan. She joined the court in 2007 after being nominated by President George W. Bush."
    Quote Originally Posted by taxman View Post
    "Last edited by Grapeshot; Today at 07:02 AM. Reason: Edited violation of rule #6 "
    Oops, managed to run afoul of moderation in the first 24 hours after I finally registered.
    The funny thing is, you didn't delete the Rule 6 personal attack from my post. When I say "George Walker PatriotAct" I mean it with the utmost in personal scorn. I was trying to be nice about it though, so I spelled his middle name with an "L".

    I never use more than five letters to spell the word "federal" when referring to our illustrious government. That's not an attack on Judge Neff, it's just my way of pointing out that the animal known as fedgov has slipped its constitutional leash, is no longer under human control, and has gone feral.
    Late explanation.
    You're perfectly free to have an opinion on one of the Georges and identify him by his actions.

    My initial concern was that you were broad brushing all federal judges. Your explanation that it is the federal government that has become wild and uncontrolled; hence "feral." I like that so much that I may use it.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-22-2015 at 05:07 AM.
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    Most of the time SCOTUS will not hear a case if there isn't more than one circuit with differing rulings. Just because they don't take a case doesn't always mean they necessarily uphold the ruling. Sometimes it's a waiting game.

    Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Sadly, it appears the OCer could not raise the funds needed to appeal this & has walked away from this case.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    If Johann doesn't appeal, do I get my GoFundMe money back? Where did you see that he isn't pursuing it? I haven't seen him post that to the MOC forum or the MOC fb pages.
    Last edited by griffin; 07-04-2015 at 05:07 PM.
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Federal Court decision allows detention for open carry..... This must be cou...

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    If Johann doesn't appeal, do I get my GoFundMe money back? Where did you see that he isn't pursuing it? I haven't seen him post that to the MOC forum or the MOC fb pages.
    Listening to last weeks atodds show, I heard Mr. Dulan (his lawyer) say Johann had decided not to go forward with the appeal.

    I think I heard that correctly? - Check for yourselves guys : while you're at it, show some love for Brian & Nate the hosts of atodds, two talented dudes IMHO.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?t=116722
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-05-2015 at 04:08 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xpiatio View Post
    Most of the time SCOTUS will not hear a case if there isn't more than one circuit with differing rulings. Just because they don't take a case doesn't always mean they necessarily uphold the ruling. Sometimes it's a waiting game.

    Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

    I think they even have a term for this, the issue is not ripened. The term exists; I'm just not 100% sure it applies to waiting for circuit split. Maybe a legal wiz can chip in.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    DELAWARE V. PROUSE--An officer CANNOT detain someone without reasonable suspicion of crime.

    US V. DEBERRY--(7th Circuit) The presence of a firearm where legal to possess, cannot by itself be reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

    Terry V. Ohio--Three criteria must be met in order to disarm an individual;
    1)The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is armed.<--- open carry is legal, no crime here.
    2)The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is dangerous; and<---- wearing camo and singing are legal acts, being odd is not a crime or dangerous.
    3)The officer must have a reasonable suspicion that the individual has committed or is about to commit a crime<---open carry, singing, wearing camo are legal. Odd behavior maybe, reasonable suspicion, NO.

    This ruling is worthless and will not hold up.
    You don't even need that. You just need the fourth amendment. And of course this so-called ruling is exactly why there is the 2A. And ANY ruling against the Constitution is only as valid as the fool who enslaves himself to it
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Folks listen to the at odds show titled 'Attorney Steve Dulan, Independence day'

    http://atoddsshow.com

    In it you will hear Steve Dulan say that his client, Johann Deffert, has decided NOT to move forward with the appeal.

    Take that for what it is, his lawyer and the NRA's top lawyer in MI. (Mr. Dulan) either making a huge error on the air, or (more likely) repeating what his client has told him. Or I'm just hearing things that aren't there???

    Listen for yourself & make your own judgements.
    Listen to the whole show to be entertained - or go directly to the 51:00 minute mark.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  22. #22
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Federal Court decision allows detention for open carry..... This must be cou...

    Map of fed courts of appeals -
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-06-2015 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Clarify confusing or wrong statement :(
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Please note - that since this ruling will not be appealed, it now stands as case law for the entire 6th federal court district!
    I thought that this case was heard at the federal district court level, the lowest in the system, and as such did not establish restraint/precedent to other courts, even within the same district and who could in fact go the other way.

    The map shown depicts the boundaries of the US Courts of Appeals, but does not demonstrate each district court's area of responsibility.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Federal Court decision allows detention for open carry..... This must be cou...

    Sorry all - I did not state it clearly - since this ruling (could be cited by prosecutors from any jurisdiction in the 6th district) could it not be used to establish a defacto precedence, I guess is what I'm trying to say. If it takes hold, and surely it will be attempted by some prosecutor, the only way to see it stopped would be by an appeal by the person(s) affected? Correct? Atleast in the Western District of MI?
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 07-06-2015 at 03:08 PM.
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    I did not state it clearly - since this ruling (could be cited by prosecutors from any jurisdiction in the 6th district) could it not be used to establish a defacto precedence, I guess is what I'm trying to say. If it takes hold, and surely it will be attempted by some prosecutor, the only way to see it stopped would be by an appeal by the person(s) affected? Correct? Atleast in the Western District of MI?
    Indeed some prosecutors will cherry pick singular decisions to bolster a case w/little or no other merit.

    See background for Stare Decisis:
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti.../stare+decisis

    Then there is this:
    http://www.constitution.org/col/0610staredrift.htm
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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