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Thread: TOC launches new website

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    TOC launches new website

    Founded on February 5, 2013, Texas Open Carry (TOC) originally aired as a YouTube channel promoting Open Carry in Texas, under the same website it uses today (www.texasopencarry.org). With Open Carry signed into law by Governor Abbott on June 13, 2015 (effective date: January 1, 2016) TOC has now moved forward with it's long term plans to build the same model group as that of Michigan Open Carry (www.miopencarry.org). MOC has built the premier Open Carry group in the US, promoting positive relationships with police, with the goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns. Like MOC, TOC has these same goals, and encourages members to treat law enforcement with the utmost respect, while offering fun get-togethers and Open Carry lunches (holstered sidearms only).

    Check out the great information on TOC's new website, at www.texasopencarry.org
    Last edited by TOC; 06-21-2015 at 01:35 AM.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Which areas of the state are you in currently? Like, if you were to have an event, what area would it be in?

    Also can't remember if I've heard of this org before... Maybe. Not sure. If I did, it was only before this most recent session.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    [ ... ] Also can't remember if I've heard of this org before... Maybe. Not sure. If I did, it was only before this most recent session.
    Domain Name:TEXASOPENCARRY.ORG
    Domain ID: D176551304-LROR
    Creation Date: 2015-06-13T00:48:44Z
    Updated Date: 2015-06-13T00:48:45Z
    Registry Expiry Date: 2016-06-13T00:48:44Z
    Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
    Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 48
    WHOIS Server:
    Referral URL:
    Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited -- http://www.icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
    Domain Status: serverTransferProhibited -- http://www.icann.org/epp#serverTransferProhibited
    Registrant ID:537e559e0ebc27ea
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Which areas of the state are you in currently? Like, if you were to have an event, what area would it be in?

    Also can't remember if I've heard of this org before... Maybe. Not sure. If I did, it was only before this most recent session.
    Hey Stealthy,

    We won't have any events till January 1st, since our events will just be Open Carry lunches and get-togethers at various places in Texas (holstered handguns only). We were just a YouTube channel with videos supporting Open Carry when we started in February, 2013 - not a true website - but using the same name "Texas Open Carry (TOC)" and the same web address: www.texasopencarry.org. We own this domain name using a different domain company than the one we used for it when we began back in 2013. Now that Open Carry in Texas has been signed into law by Gov. Abbott (effective January 1, 2016), we have moved forward with our long planned website.

    With TOC already having the name and website back in February, 2013, (a few months before OCT launched), it's most likely why Open Carry Texas (OCT) came up with the alternative name at www.opencarrytexas.org. TOC loves CJ Grisham, the leader at OCT, and he's a superb spokesman for Open Carry when it comes to taking on certain police departments or police chiefs who are against OC. He is very good at public speaking, and articulating the argument for Open Carry (and gun rights in general). We will never try to do that - nor are we capable - but instead are simply another avenue for spreading information on the importance and the benefits of Open Carry in Texas.

    TOC understands the true problems that many police departments have caused for those wishing to Open Carry their long arms, and that these were primarily a way for OCT, Texas Carry, and other groups to push for the legal Open Carry of handguns. But TOC's events will just be low key, fun Open Carry get-togethers of like-minded Texans who want to Open Carry their holstered firearms only.

    So TOC is on plan to create itself very similar to Michigan Open Carry (MOC), at www.miopencarry.org. They have always been our template for what we want to do: promoting positive relationships with police with a goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns. We believe that police should be treated with the utmost respect, and that winning them over with polite encounters and polite OC events will go a long way towards furthering our cause of freedom.
    Last edited by TOC; 06-21-2015 at 02:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOC View Post
    [ ... ] but using the same name "Texas Open Carry (TOC)" and the same web address: www.texasopencarry.org. [ ... ]
    The web address is new, "Creation Date: 2015-06-13T00:48:44Z"
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Sounds like fun, I enjoy low key get together. I'll keep an eye out for any events near me following the law taking effect. I'll also look for you on youtube if the vids are still up.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The web address is new, "Creation Date: 2015-06-13T00:48:44Z"
    We own this domain name using a different domain company than the one we used for it when we began back in 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOC View Post
    Founded on February 5, 2013, Texas Open Carry (TOC) originally aired as a YouTube channel promoting Open Carry in Texas, under the same website it uses today (www.texasopencarry.org). With Open Carry signed into law by Governor Abbott on June 13, 2015 (effective date: January 1, 2016) TOC has now moved forward with it's long term plans to build the same model group as that of Michigan Open Carry (www.miopencarry.org). MOC has built the premier Open Carry group in the US, promoting positive relationships with police, with the goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns. Like MOC, TOC has these same goals, and encourages members to treat law enforcement with the utmost respect, while offering fun get-togethers and Open Carry lunches (holstered sidearms only).

    Check out the great information on TOC's new website, at www.texasopencarry.org
    Only thing I would have said differently is that MOC has built one of the premier Open Carry groups in the US.

    Opinion being what it is, we still do not want to slight or diminish other extremely effective state groups.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Sounds like fun, I enjoy low key get together. I'll keep an eye out for any events near me following the law taking effect. I'll also look for you on youtube if the vids are still up.
    Thanks Stealthy,

    You won't find any videos as we've taken them down and are website only. Here is the link to the original YouTube site though:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/TexasOpenCarry/about

    Sign up for free on our site (www.texasopencarry.org) and we will keep you posted once we start having these get-togethers. Will love to have you. We think a lot of Texans will enjoy low key type events.
    Last edited by TOC; 06-21-2015 at 03:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Only thing I would have said differently is that MOC has built one of the premier Open Carry groups in the US.

    Opinion being what it is, we still do not want to slight or diminish other extremely effective state groups.
    True, good point Grapeshot. We'll even go and change that on our website right now.

  11. #11
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    TOC, you are a brand spanking new unique entity in TX...good luck, but for GOODNESS sake get rid of the 'oh lookie lookie, we want to be like MOC and are going to emulate them..." crap on your new enterprise website.

    surely you are not that narrow minded and lacking focus you cannot come up with original goals and objectives based on TX initiatives, if you can't, bloody h3ll mate just scour MOCs, GRNCs, Buckeye, ad nauseam and pick and choose and copy their crap and put it in your own words so at least you look original in your start up? this is not a new concept and there are plenty of examples but your current start up looks pitiful stating your TX site is going to follow Michigan's example.

    IMHO, you were opportunistic and grabbed the domain, at least make your money worthwhile to the citizens of texas who want to OC...

    and i have gone on record of advocating and would attend a OC picnic in dallas on the 1st!!

    TOC.org established in 1791

    geez...
    Last edited by solus; 06-21-2015 at 04:11 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    TOC, you are a brand spanking new unique entity in TX...good luck, but for GOODNESS sake get rid of the 'oh lookie lookie, we want to be like MOC and are going to emulate them..." crap on your new enterprise website.

    surely you are not that narrow minded and lacking focus you cannot come up with original goals and objectives based on TX initiatives, if you can't, bloody h3ll mate just scour MOCs, GRNCs, Buckeye, ad nauseam and pick and choose and copy their crap and put it in your own words so at least you look original in your start up? this is not a new concept and there are plenty of examples but your current start up looks pitiful stating your TX site is going to follow Michigan's example.

    IMHO, you were opportunistic and grabbed the domain, at least make your money worthwhile to the citizens of texas who want to OC...

    and i have gone on record of advocating and would attend a OC picnic in dallas on the 1st!!

    TOC.org established in 1791

    geez...
    If you don't like us, don't join. Nice rant, but kind of weird.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOC View Post
    If you don't like us, don't join. Nice rant, but kind of weird.
    sorry mate wasn't a tirate...but apparently you lack the insight to see viable suggestions being put forth to enhance your opportunistic entrance into reality.

    point: why on earth would anybody, advertisers especially, join a local texas OC group if their banner stated '''we are going to emulate the MOC??'''

    point: why on earth would anybody, advertisers especially, join a local texas OC group without any type of goals except ''''we are going to emulate the goals of MOC'''

    point: why on earth would anybody join a local texas OC group who's banner states:'''TOC est 1791'''

    new point: why on earth would anybody, especially advertisers, contribute to something whose site founders, history, experience base, and so forth is shrouded from them. even your FB page is 'who cares' and why should anybody join let alone follow?

    to force your cadre of followers, 238 FB - to have to jump to the MOC website to see your new site's goals, etc. WHY?

    yes yes yes you're just starting...so what, you stepped out there by posting here bragging, now get over yourself and start by presenting a viable presence on the web for the good citizens of texas who wish to open carry.

    and yet, i'm kinda weird?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-21-2015 at 05:25 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry mate wasn't a tirate...but apparently you lack the insight to see viable suggestions being put forth to enhance your opportunistic entrance into reality.

    point: why on earth would anybody, advertisers especially, join a local texas OC group if their banner stated '''we are going to emulate the MOC??'''

    point: why on earth would anybody, advertisers especially, join a local texas OC group without any type of goals except ''''we are going to emulate the goals of MOC'''

    point: why on earth would anybody join a local texas OC group who's banner states:'''TOC est 1791'''

    new point: why on earth would anybody, especially advertisers, contribute to something whose site founders, history, experience base, and so forth is shrouded from them. even your FB page is 'who cares' and why should anybody join let alone follow?

    to force your cadre of followers, 238 FB - to have to jump to the MOC website to see your new site's goals, etc.

    yes yes yes you're just starting...so what, you stepped out there by posting here bragging, now get over yourself and start by presenting a viable presence on the web for the good citizens of texas who wish to open carry.

    and yet, i'm kinda weird?

    ipse
    Established 1791 is a reference to the date of ratification for Amendment II - when our rights to carry were established into the supreme law of the land. Perhaps you didn't know that date - we'll give you a pass.

    And so you're also saying that the fact we want to use good qualities of MOC - a successful OC group who looks for polite interactions with law enforcement, rather than confrontation - is bad... makes us wonder about the type of group you'd prefer to "emulate".

    And we never said Facebook, we said YouTube. There's a Texas Open Carry Facebook page that isn't ours. So that point of yours is irrelevant.

    Another irrelevant point is "why advertisers" would want to deal with us. When did we ever say we wanted advertisers? HAHA We have no interest in finding advertisers. So that point of yours is also irrelevant.

    TOC is officially done talking with you... another Constitutional right of ours as well.
    Last edited by TOC; 06-21-2015 at 05:30 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOC View Post
    Established 1791 is a reference to the date of ratification for Amendment II - when our rights to carry were established into the supreme law of the land. Perhaps you didn't know that date - we'll give you a pass.

    And so you're also saying that the fact we want to use good qualities of MOC - a successful OC group who looks for polite interactions with law enforcement, rather than confrontation - is bad... makes us wonder about the type of group you'd prefer to "emulate".

    TOC is officially done talking with you... another Constitutional right of ours too.
    no mate, i am saying you are not stated nor presenting ANY specific goals and objectives for TEXAS!!

    that is not what your precious banner leads ppl to believe...especially texasopencarry.org est 1791

    btw, texas' BoR article 1, section 23 is the one you might be interested in using the date from as it applies to the lonestar state. especially since it gives: quote but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms,....unquote.

    as originally stated mate...good luck with your enterprise, especially with that mentality...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-21-2015 at 05:43 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I think the points of criticism are a little weak, personally. There's nothing wrong with modeling an organization after another that has experienced success, nor is there anything wrong with being open or even proud of the fact that the organizations is being modeled in that way.

    As far as the goals, it appears to me that the goals of the organization are "promoting positive relationships with police with a goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns." I think that's the goals because it says so in the OP and on the website.
    Advocate freedom please

  17. #17
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I think the points of criticism are a little weak, personally. There's nothing wrong with modeling an organization after another that has experienced success, nor is there anything wrong with being open or even proud of the fact that the organizations is being modeled in that way.

    As far as the goals, it appears to me that the goals of the organization are "promoting positive relationships with police with a goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns." I think that's the goals because it says so in the OP and on the website.
    stealth, really, you post the criticism is weak and yet even you cannot articulate what the new organization's goal(s) cuz that isn't what their website states..what about the bold part below and those goals underlined and in italic?

    quote...With Open Carry becoming law, TOC has now moved forward with our long term plans to build the same model group as that of Michigan Open Carry™ (www.miopencarry.org). MOC has built one of the premier Open Carry groups in the US, promoting positive relationships with police with a goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns. Like MOC, TOC has these same goals, and encourages members to treat law enforcement with the utmost respect, while offering fun, low key get-togethers and Open Carry lunches (holstered sidearms only). unquote.

    as pointed out stealth, et al., what does 'build the same model group' mean? can you quantify to those who TOC's wishes to join or to a politician whom the group wishes to sway? not a bloody thing!!
    1. uh, perhaps build the same model group, like same type of primary webpage?
    2. uh, perhaps build the same model group, like having the same goals? but what methodology is to be used on those goals in the model group going to been accomplished? and with apparent forethought those goals are appropriate for a newbie state who just got their OC ability attached to the privilege card?
    3. uh, MOC's model group doesn't say a word about treating law enforcement with the utmost respect? why is this provision important to the good Texas citizens and how in the devil is this goal going to be accomplished?
    4. uh, MOC's only goal as stated by TOC's quote:...promoting positive relationships with police with a goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns. unquote is not what MOC's state:
    ~ to educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.
    ~ To exercise a natural right to self defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.
    ~ To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.
    ~To protect our right to self-defense.

    you say my criticism is weak...stealth at least my criticism, while you and TOC believe to be inappropriate, but if you would eliminate your unemotional notions and consider for a moment what is the true purpose of this entity and work towards making it the site needed to guide texas citizens through this...

    again, for the record...someone explain to this forum why a half arsed mention of modeling against MOC's will work in texas?

    again TOC's goals are what stealth?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-21-2015 at 10:02 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    I think the points of criticism are a little weak, personally. There's nothing wrong with modeling an organization after another that has experienced success, nor is there anything wrong with being open or even proud of the fact that the organizations is being modeled in that way.

    As far as the goals, it appears to me that the goals of the organization are "promoting positive relationships with police with a goal of working together to educate law enforcement agencies and the People on their rights to Open Carry their holstered handguns." I think that's the goals because it says so in the OP and on the website.
    Thanks Stealthy,

    Yep, you pretty much hit it on the head on our goals, and thanks for your well chosen words. Probably our "respect law enforcement" didn't go over well with this guy, and really we don't expect it will with everyone. But we prefer to run our events and group this way... just keeping it low key. And we are proud to want to use the proven and wise plan of Michigan Open Carry, including their goal: "To always be ambassadors of good will in regards to the safe and lawful carry of a firearm". Sounds good to us!

    Anyways, Open Carry was going to pass the Texas Legislature this year because Governor Greg Abbott made it a point in his election campaign to promise he would sign it into law. He basically told the Legislature "I want a bill on my desk". In fact, even Wendy Davis, the Democrat running against Abbott, promised the exact same thing if she were elected! It was never the AK-47s and the rifles being OC'd in Texas that won the Open Carry of handguns. It was common sense legislators finally doing their job. Legislators weren't scared into making OC the law just because some Texans took to the streets with long arms over their shoulders.

    In fact, the real champions here in getting this completed are former State Legislator George Lavender, who initially proposed HB 700 in the previous session. Governor Perry didn't make Open Carry a priority, and never really backed it strongly as it needed. Then along came Gov. Abbott, and the tide turned. Lavender and Abbott are the one's who deserve the praise for getting Open Carry signed into law.

    But some don't like the police at all, and have no respect for them. So for TOC to state we should "respect law enforcement" can result in this kind of over-the-top rants we've seen on this thread. But relax, the vast majority of police are outstanding, and Texans who Open Carry will better earn the respect of law enforcement when we learn to respect them as well. It goes both ways.

  19. #19
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOC View Post
    Thanks Stealthy,

    Yep, you pretty much hit it on the head on our goals, and thanks for your well chosen words. Probably our "respect law enforcement" didn't go over well with this guy, and really we don't expect it will with everyone. But we prefer to run our events and group this way... just keeping it low key. And we are proud to want to use the proven and wise plan of Michigan Open Carry, including their goal: "To always be ambassadors of good will in regards to the safe and lawful carry of a firearm". Sounds good to us!

    Anyways, Open Carry was going to pass the Texas Legislature this year because Governor Greg Abbott made it a point in his election campaign to promise he would sign it into law. He basically told the Legislature "I want a bill on my desk". In fact, even Wendy Davis, the Democrat running against Abbott, promised the exact same thing if she were elected! It was never the AK-47s and the rifles being OC'd in Texas that won the Open Carry of handguns. It was common sense legislators finally doing their job. Legislators weren't scared into making OC the law just because some Texans took to the streets with long arms over their shoulders.

    In fact, the real champions here in getting this completed are former State Legislator George Lavender, who initially proposed HB 700 in the previous session. Governor Perry didn't make Open Carry a priority, and never really backed it strongly as it needed. Then along came Gov. Abbott, and the tide turned. Lavender and Abbott are the one's who deserve the praise for getting Open Carry signed into law.

    But some don't like the police at all, and have no respect for them. So for TOC to state we should "respect law enforcement" can result in this kind of over-the-top rants we've seen on this thread. But relax, the vast majority of police are outstanding, and Texans who Open Carry will better earn the respect of law enforcement when we learn to respect them as well. It goes both ways.
    excuse me? what kind of absurd drivel is spewing from your keyboard...

    tread lightly TOC your unfounded & inappropriate leap of faith and therefore accusations in your post about me are ill suited and actually show your true nature, it truly shows your lack of social skills to function in the role of 'modeling our site after MOC' as you obviously lack the appropriate temperament mate.

    therefore, to ensure clarity of your accusation as well as mitigate any misconception to the membership and public readers of this forum, I respectfully request you show me where, anywhere on this forum, i have stated or insinuated, real or perceived, i do not like LE nor have any thing but the utmost respect for them?

    please understand your credibility while waning, _removed by poster as being inappropriate_ and reflects quite poorly on your spirit and intent of your venture's following even beginning to reflect any kind of premier OC site.

    in fact, your bold'd comment says a great deal mate...tell me how you are going to ascertain which LE are in the majority?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-22-2015 at 12:28 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Sounds like a personal attack to me. Maybe we should all take a breath and evaluate our medications.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    Sounds like a personal attack to me. Maybe we should all take a breath and evaluate our medications.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    noname, thanks for the suggestion, just checked, discerned my psychotropics are appropriately dosed, and on board for this evening...life in my singular world is good ...

    hope your weekend was good?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 06-22-2015 at 12:47 AM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Pardon me

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The web address is new, "Creation Date: 2015-06-13T00:48:44Z"
    May I introduce you to the way back machine https://web.archive.org/web/20090815...sopencarry.org It would seem that the name had been used previous to the current owner as well.

  23. #23
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    1/2 life, why play outside the forum's infrastructure...

    '06 http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...the-TCDL-Forum

    where this TCDL lasted but a short while then it was changed to Lonestar CDL in '10.

    everyone site pushing OC...

    opps disention in the ranks feb 07 quote: If you are a member of Texas Citizens Defense League I suggest that you join Texas State Rifle Association as they are willing to adjust their legislative priorities to represent the interest of their members. unquote http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-on-open-carry

    ipse
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  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, please sirs. You may not like the style and/or methods of an organization and even have a personality clash with each other. One's idea of what is effective may be better (or not) than another's.

    BUT, the point needs to be made that they (TOC) are supporting OC and according to the rules that at least puts them in the good guys column. Let's not eat our own - work to make things better.

    If I were working to form a new group, I think that I would give a good listen to what some of the potential members thought, but in no way do I intend to interfere with Texan's forming such a group for themselves.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 06-22-2015 at 05:53 AM.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Gentlemen, please sirs. You may not like the style and/or methods of an organization and even have a personality clash with each other. One's idea of what is effective may be better (or not) than another's.

    BUT, the point needs to be made that they (TOC) are supporting OC and according to the rules that at least puts them in the good guys column. Let's not eat our own - work to make things better.

    If I were working to form a new group, I think that I would give a good listen to what some of the potential members thought, but in no way do I intend to interfere with Texan's forming such a group for themselves.
    Hear, hear and thanks Grapeshot for your reminder as this thread has felt like a downward spiral.
    Last edited by Glockster; 06-22-2015 at 07:24 AM. Reason: Correcting darn iPad's auto-correct nonsense!
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