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Olympia PrideFest organizers deny open carrier LGBT members entrance to public event.

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solus

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3:00 Minutes in on this video; http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b0c_1434940450

I see some WSP officers... Ending the video with the officer saying 'This is clearly causing a disturbance'.

thanks slapmonkey, i thought i listened to the end and apparently missed the connotation of the conversation against the actually video footage showing the nice LEs...

but read what is stated in their blog about the nice LEs arriving...

quote They even say "Nobody wants you here," even though the Washington State Patrol confirmed that the group had the right to be at the event as they were, just like anybody else there. As the woman in pink started to push her way into one of the group members (which she in fact made contact with his body) uniformed men stepped in to handle the situation, telling her that she was to not touch him in any way, and the camera was turned off for the privacy and respect for the uniformed man and the conversation he had with the woman.

such consideration...

still find it quite interesting...and wonder if the consternation raised by the organizers would have been so outspoken if there were no LGs involved and just individual(s) just OC'g?

alas, a what if scenario...

again thanks for your insight on pointing that out...

ipse
 
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utbagpiper

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Sterling example

Ignoring the rank hypocrisy of a group screaming for recognition of "rights" that nobody even hinted existed until the last 15 years being overtly hostile to a fundamental, constitutionally enumerated right like RKBA, and also ignoring personal beliefs about homosexual conduct....

This case highlights exactly why the RKBA community needs to reach out to various minorities. The stereotypical, white, heterosexual, conservative Christian rural gun owner could not hope to make the slightest inroads at an event like this while demanding his right to carry.

But a homosexual or other sexual minority has a very different voice in the ability to explain that "armed homosexuals don't get bashed".

I believe there is great value in fostering those within the RKBA community who do not fit the stereotypes. I believe she has since passed, but for a while a regular pro-RKBA voice in Utah legislative hearings was a woman who used a wheelchair. There is simply no rebuttal when she rolled up to the mic and said simply, "I CAN'T run away from a violent criminal. I need a gun to defend myself." Another woman was very powerful when she said, "I need my gun because I never again want to be subjected to a rape. It was being victimized in that brutal manner than convinced me I needed a way to defend myself in the first place."

Sexual minorities, racial minorities, women, crime victims, and the disabled bring a powerful voice to our side of the RKBA debate.

Charles
 

solus

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piper, et al., nawlll, the GLBT community, in approximately 45 years, have managed to single handedly to overcome against all odds, against religious, str8s, and a whole gaggle of other zealots, all of whom make the Bloomberg, nra's ila, and other antis crowd look like a church choirs, succeed in steady, forward, concentrated nationally directed campaign(s) pushed to reaching their goals and the funny thing is, this group didn't have a dedicated amendment to assist them.

I acknowledge, there have been a couple of state wide successes noted in the rkba arena but not on a national level ~ mainly because of the myriad of individual egos pushing what their perception is the best modality to pursue which runs counter to another's perception and then the infighting starts and now those who or want to support the agenda, find themselves torn who to join.

there is no national agenda, why even you can not tell me what should be on any rkba agenda with any type of certainty w/o the war beginning of why your agenda list is not suitable to someone else, let alone provide any kind of priority or descending order to begin checking them off.

even when that herculean task is worked out, the egos will begin arguing how to organize on getting these goals reached. then the infighting will begin on how to budget and where is the money going to come from ...and the downward spiral begins and activities fall apart to meaningless nothing.

so piper, tell us you listing of rkba activities, by priority, we should work towards.

ipse
 

OC for ME

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Liberals are liberals first and foremost. Identifiers, typically associated with liberals are no guarantee that you will be accepted into, or remain, in the liberal group.

Example(s)?

Hillary Clinton...good.
Carly Fiorina...bad.

Barry Obama...good.
Ben Carson...bad.

Thurgood Marshall...good.
Clarence Thomas...bad.

CNN...good.
FNC...bad.

Cops with guns...good.
You with guns...bad.
 

utbagpiper

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Liberals are as hypocritical as conservatives. Not shocked.

And calling anyone a hypocrite isn't likely to persuade them to your way of thinking, nor even engender them to want to associate or work with you even if they do agree.

"Hypocrite" is just another version of "bigot". It is used far too often by the small minded to shut down discussion (poisoning of the well) or as a generic epithet lobbed at anyone who disagrees.

The truth is, anyone can be hypocritical. But that easy label is applied to "liberals" or "conservatives" really only by those who accept sound-bite descriptions of either political philosophy. When all of liberalism is reduced to "individual rights" or when all of conservative philosophy is reduced to "limited government", it is easy to paint adherents of either as being "hypocrites" or--less inflammatorily--"inconsistent."

Of course, to l/Libertarians or other objectivists who place very high value on self-consistency within political/social views, inconsistency is among the gravest of sins. Right up there with violating NAP. But most of us are not nearly so attached to the "hobgoblin of little minds". Strict constitutionalists, for example, will note elements of the US Constitution that are democratic while other elements are very much anti-democratic, some are downright statist, while some elements are libertarian.

For strict constitutionalists, as well as for thoughtful liberals and conservatives, consistency (especially as defined by libertarians) is not nearly as important as what they believe works.

For the less thoughtful views are just held because they are comfortable. Votes are cast because it is "our team" or how dad voted, or because the other team is the devil. If these folks are hypocrites, they are too ignorant to recognize it.

But bottom line, most hold the views they do for emotional reasons, not intellectual reasons. Purely intellectual arguments won't persuade them. And throwing around bombs like "hypocrite" will have no more positive effect on the left than calling someone a "bigot" will on the right.

Rather than denouncing "liberals" as hypocrites, we ought to be learning from their successes and emulating their (lawful) tactics for our own political success. One thing is for sure, the hypocritical liberals have been a lot more successful in advancing their agenda than have the cerebral, superior, objectivists.

Charles
 

solus

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so piper, tell us your listing of rkba activities, by priority, we should work towards.

ipse
 

utbagpiper

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lol....because calling someone small minded when they point out someones hypocrisy is......lol

I did not call anyone here "small minded". I pointed out that the small minded misuse the word "hypocrisy" just as they misuse the word "bigot."

If my comments do not apply to you, do not take offense, nor try to create divisions.

If my comments do apply to you....I suggest you fix something.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I abhor the suggestion (not by you) we adopt the tactics of were they are successful.......they lie, cheat and steal.....

SVG,

It is time for you to stop trying to stir up needless disagreements over personality conflicts or even our well known disagreements regarding the propriety of government. This is not an anarchist board. It is a pro-OC board. And this is politics where some degree of disagreement among grown adults is expected. It isn't a church where any heretic must be purged.

If it wasn't abundantly clear to you or anyone else that I support the honest, honorable, and legal tactics of the left that have worked very well in advancing their agenda (including incrementalism, framing the argument, proper use of emotion, and getting the most convincing cases and faces in front of legislators and cameras) while eschewing the illegal, dishonest, or criminal, I trust this sentence will settle that matter. You can hardly criticize me for being verbose, and then use my lack of exhaustive disclaimer as an excuse to attack my character. An honest question would have resolved the matter.

No one can objectively doubt that the left has made greater progress the last 100 years than has the right, or the libertarians/anarchists/objectivists. Purely intellectual arguments are not going win the game. The better mousetrap doesn't always win in the market. Marketing matters as much as actual performance in many cases.

Stop trying to stir up disagreements and contentions where there are none and need not be any. It is not helpful to any good thing. **moderator edited** engage in an honest, mature, civil manner. Assuming or implying I have evil motives is never going to be a sign of civility.

And despite what you may believe, supporting constitutional government rather than anarchy is not a sign of being an evil person either.

Charles
 
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Dave_pro2a

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The truth is, anyone can be hypocritical.

But most of us are not nearly so attached to the "hobgoblin of little minds". Strict constitutionalists, for example, will note elements of the US Constitution that are democratic while other elements are very much anti-democratic, some are downright statist, while some elements are libertarian.

1) Everyone is hypocritical at times. Some are seldom hypocritical, and some are nearly always hypocritical. Fervent believers of the liberal and conservative faiths are more likely to fall into the later camp, not the former.

2) The uneducated and the disingenuous are two types of people who often use partial quotes to try and prove their point. One from ignorance, the other from maliciousness. The actual quote has an important qualifier, "foolish."

There's also something in the common version of that full quote about how politicians, of all people, are most prone to the foolish consistency and of having small minds... it'd be fair to say that applies to the blind party followers.

3) --persnal insult deleted--
 
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Dave_pro2a

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No one can objectively doubt that the left has made greater progress the last 100 years than has the right, or the libertarians/anarchists/objectivists. Purely intellectual arguments are not going win the game. The better mousetrap doesn't always win in the market. Marketing matters as much as actual performance in many cases.

They take from the rich and give to the poor.

Hard to beat the plebeian appeal of that sales pitch.
 

utbagpiper

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They take from the rich and give to the poor.

Hard to beat the plebeian appeal of that sales pitch.

No doubt that is part of it. But there seem to be a fair number of limousine liberals and even middle class leftists as well as welfare queens. So there is clearly more to the liberal success than just robbing Peter to buy off Paul.

Even if one doesn't care to emulate the successful (honorable) strategies of his opponents, is imprudent to be ignorant of them. It is one thing to cast your opponent a certain way in public discussions. It is quite another to drink your own bath water and actually believe he is as one-dimensional, wholly evil, or stupid as you may choose to portray him to others. It is a foolish man who dismisses his opponents' ability or strategy too quickly.

Charles
 
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utbagpiper

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Trying to lob insults in a half-donky erudite fashion, yet still coming across as sanctimonious and pugnacious, is_not_civil.

At least I plainly say what I mean.

And it is clear what you mean. You hold others in utter contempt and have no desire to maintain even professional workable relationships.

You have demonstrated you hold the kind of small minded attitude that is destructive to forming and maintaining the kind of numbers needed to make positive political change. It is also clear you have no regard for the rules of the site.

Charles
 

Dave_pro2a

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SVG,

It is time for you to stop trying to stir up needless disagreements over personality conflicts or even our well known disagreements regarding the propriety of government. This is not an anarchist board. It is a pro-OC board.

Ahh, SVG calls for the law of the land to be fairly enforced, and you insinuate he's an anarchist. Yeah, liberals HAVE made a lot of progress over the last 100 years, so have the so called conservatives (Patriot ACT!)
 

Grapeshot

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Gentlemen !!!

You will note some posts have been edited. Others have been totally deleted, gone.

The bickering, snipping, insulting verbiage ill becomes you, harms the forum, and must stop. Disagree on facts or your opinion of them, WITH OUT reference to personality.

I also note the absolute abandonment of any real connection to the OP terms of this thread - it has become a head on train wreck and IMO not redeemable.

Been a while since I've locked a thread, but this one has been earned.
 
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