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Thread: What exactly are these 'gun reforms' the antis want?

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    What exactly are these 'gun reforms' the antis want?

    What, exactly, are these ‘common sense’ gun ‘reforms’ antis want?

    There was much news over the weekend, the most recent being a piece in yesterday’s Christian Science Monitor, quoting would-be president Hillary Rodham Clinton, who said Saturday that the nation needs “common-sense gun control reforms.”

    http://www.examiner.com/article/what...rms-antis-want

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Ban all guns from all serfs.

    The wicked witch would gladly eat Hansel and Gretel in the process.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    A couple of years ago I did a radio "debate" with the local Utah hoplophobe (ironically named Steve Gunn). He kept saying he didn't want to ban all guns.

    So I pressed him on what he'd permit if he were king for a day. He conceded he'd allow guns that held no more than 5 rounds at a time. He would require background checks and psych evals and police chief ability to deny permits to purchase, safe storage requirements at home with strict liability for any injury involving a gun, and elimination of our shall issue permit system instead returning to the bad old days of discriminatory permits.

    I suspect his position was fairly typical among his ilk.

    So when they say they don't want to ban or confiscate all of our guns, they are being technically truthful, but practically deceitful.

    Their intent and desire is to ban virtually every gun useful for self-defense, to outlaw the carrying of guns for self-defense (except perhaps for the elite who can obtain discriminatory permits), and to impose such costs and liability to ownership (while closing as much government land to hunting and sport shooting as possible) as to make gun ownership too costly with too few benefits for any but the most elite to pursue. If you belong to a hunting club with adequate storage and security, you could drive out to shoot a few clay pigeons on the weekend, leaving your shotgun at the club when you return home. Duty to retreat laws would make acting in self defense a crime in more cases than not. Hand over your wallet and keys hoping the bad guys only wanted property. Ignore questions about women and rape, that topic is to be discussed only in the context of justifying elective abortions on demand.

    We gun owners need to do a couple of things:

    1-Just remind elected officials: Gun ban of 1994 and the first time in 40 years the GOP took control of the House.

    2-Hammer on "Mental healthcare, not control of RKBA."

    3-Continue to point out the failings of all the laws we currently have that make buying a gun a hassle for the law-abiding.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    A couple of years ago I did a radio "debate" with the local Utah hoplophobe (ironically named Steve Gunn). He kept saying he didn't want to ban all guns.

    So I pressed him on what he'd permit if he were king for a day. He conceded he'd allow guns that held no more than 5 rounds at a time. He would require background checks and psych evals and police chief ability to deny permits to purchase, safe storage requirements at home with strict liability for any injury involving a gun, and elimination of our shall issue permit system instead returning to the bad old days of discriminatory permits.

    I suspect his position was fairly typical among his ilk.

    So when they say they don't want to ban or confiscate all of our guns, they are being technically truthful, but practically deceitful.

    Their intent and desire is to ban virtually every gun useful for self-defense, to outlaw the carrying of guns for self-defense (except perhaps for the elite who can obtain discriminatory permits), and to impose such costs and liability to ownership (while closing as much government land to hunting and sport shooting as possible) as to make gun ownership too costly with too few benefits for any but the most elite to pursue. If you belong to a hunting club with adequate storage and security, you could drive out to shoot a few clay pigeons on the weekend, leaving your shotgun at the club when you return home. Duty to retreat laws would make acting in self defense a crime in more cases than not. Hand over your wallet and keys hoping the bad guys only wanted property. Ignore questions about women and rape, that topic is to be discussed only in the context of justifying elective abortions on demand.

    We gun owners need to do a couple of things:

    1-Just remind elected officials: Gun ban of 1994 and the first time in 40 years the GOP took control of the House.

    2-Hammer on "Mental healthcare, not control of RKBA."

    3-Continue to point out the failings of all the laws we currently have that make buying a gun a hassle for the law-abiding.

    Charles
    interesting your interviewee stated that about the top LE in the area being able to deny...that provision (Pistol Purchase Permit (PPP) cost $5) has been in effect in the Tarheel state for decades and for the last two three years, at least, the GRNC coupled with the NRA have P U S H E D hard on our good olde boy legislative body, spending hundred of thousands of dollars, to get that provision repealed out of our state's statutes. GRNC/NRA even launched a smear campaign again the hold out organization ~ the NC Sheriffs Association pointing out the PPP system is subjective and discriminates against persons of color ~ course as usual, there is no verifiable objective evidence just hearsay gossip.

    but, ya'l know, there is something calming knowing that while billy bob might pass the FBI's NICS check, the top peace officer of each county (not chief of PD) who personally knows billy bob and his kin and who feels from their local interactions with the law, they are no-gooders, the whole clan, and won't give billy bob a PPP so billy bob can't purchase a firearm to continue his or his kin's nefarious ways.

    just say'g...be good ya here!!

    ipse

    ps, the tarheel state also has no duty to retreat...darn nice living in this archaic state knowing we are still apparently the model!!
    Last edited by solus; 06-22-2015 at 03:54 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I can't think of a single modern mass shooter who wasn't already violating laws PRIOR to drawing his firearm and shooting innocents (can anyone else). So the solution is to pass more laws. Sure, that makes sense.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Just common sense gun law, you don't need to know the details they are just common sense, you do love children don't you?
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I can't think of a single modern mass shooter who wasn't already violating laws PRIOR to drawing his firearm and shooting innocents (can anyone else). So the solution is to pass more laws. Sure, that makes sense.
    +1
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member Trakanon's Avatar
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    I remember way back in ye oldern days of the 1990s when I was in high school - they blamed Columbine on Doom and Marilyn Manson. Today it's the weapons themselves or 19th-century battlefield flags. People look for soft targets to place their blame, because that's easier to wrap their minds around than trying to understand the evil that drives someone to murder. Either that or they just want to take advantage of a tragedy to advance their team's agenda.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakanon View Post
    I remember way back in ye oldern days of the 1990s when I was in high school - they blamed Columbine on Doom and Marilyn Manson. Today it's the weapons themselves or 19th-century battlefield flags. People look for soft targets to place their blame, because that's easier to wrap their minds around than trying to understand the evil that drives someone to murder. Either that or they just want to take advantage of a tragedy to advance their team's agenda.
    I think that is part of it. I think the other part is that to admit that there is evil is to admit that there are things that are right and things that are wrong. In other words, there are moral absolutes.

    The side of the political table most intent on infringing or even eliminating our 2A rights is the side of the table that spends a lot of time on moral relativism and arguing that there are not only no moral absolutes but not even factual absolutes. If someone with XY chromosomes and a penis can just decide one morning he is female and be celebrated by the MSM nationwide and if someone else born a blonde haired, green eyed, Caucasian can just decide one day to instead be black and be accepted as such, then it isn't a stretch to argue that an inanimate hunk of plastic and steel wanders around killing innocent people because it can.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    It is discriminatory to discriminate good from evil and right from wrong, a micro-aggression. PC verboten!
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakanon View Post
    I remember way back in ye oldern days of the 1990s when I was in high school - they blamed Columbine on Doom and Marilyn Manson. Today it's the weapons themselves or 19th-century battlefield flags. People look for soft targets to place their blame, because that's easier to wrap their minds around than trying to understand the evil that drives someone to murder. Either that or they just want to take advantage of a tragedy to advance their team's agenda.
    those inanimate objects or abstract mentalities (what about ozzy or alice?) cannot defend themselves so they are easy targets...

    you are absolutely right when you state ppl are stepping up to the plate and hanging their hidden agenda on the tragedy.

    however, neither does anybody wish to place the blame where it belongs, e.g., columbine shooter's father tripped over gun parts in the shooters bedroom and said nothing? really?

    in the latest shooting, roof bragged on FB and other social media and yet nobody reported it? (oh wait, shades of 1984) additionally, where were the caregivers when their offspring turned to the dark side...this type of behaviour does not occur over night and the caregivers should have interceded to get the young man assistance. (i will not entertain he was 21 and an adult ~ ya'l know your momma would smack and chastise you if you misbehaved even if you were 40!!)

    you may do your own research, but 18-24 is when a devastating mental illness disorder affects young adults. there are blatantly obvious behavioural changes which manifest themselves in the individual, yet are normally ignored by the caregivers, mainly due to the social stigma associated with the disorder or they themselves have some off shoot of the disorder and therefore oblivious. even once the disorder is properly diagnosed, appropriate meds prescribed, due to the prescribed psychotropic's side effects, the disorder is difficult get stabilized so the individual could maintain some semblance of a normal life. and it is a constant battle to ensure the individual takes their meds on a daily basis.

    some believe this is the reason for the self medication of illicit substances done by some young adults to overcome the mental disorder's symptoms. others believe the disorder manifests its self due to their use of illicit substances. it is a concept of which comes first.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I think that is part of it. I think the other part is that to admit that there is evil is to admit that there are things that are right and things that are wrong. In other words, there are moral absolutes.

    The side of the political table most intent on infringing or even eliminating our 2A rights is the side of the table that spends a lot of time on moral relativism and arguing that there are not only no moral absolutes but not even factual absolutes. If someone with XY chromosomes and a penis can just decide one morning he is female and be celebrated by the MSM nationwide and if someone else born a blonde haired, green eyed, Caucasian can just decide one day to instead be black and be accepted as such, then it isn't a stretch to argue that an inanimate hunk of plastic and steel wanders around killing innocent people because it can.
    here here...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix David View Post
    Just common sense gun law, you don't need to know the details they are just common sense, you do love children don't you?
    Yes I do, which is why I think Isreal's idea to protect children and the statistics showing it works should be viewed as VERY important.. but that doesn't follow your agenda of guns are bad, so I guess I can't use this logical, fact based, argument against you.

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    It's been stated many times, but they want criminals to obey a long list of laws, they want to start a 'slippery slope' of rights denials and THEY want to feel safer, and be the only ones with arms and armed guards.

    Just once I'd like to see some Jim Carry 'Liar, Liar' juice given to these talking heads. They have to really say what perfidy they're thinking for once.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    It's been stated many times, but they want criminals to obey a long list of laws, they want to start a 'slippery slope' of rights denials and THEY want to feel safer, and be the only ones with arms and armed guards.

    Just once I'd like to see some Jim Carry 'Liar, Liar' juice given to these talking heads. They have to really say what perfidy they're thinking for once.
    They are saying very clearly what they are thinking.

    They just think and speak in a totally different language. You can generally tell the difference..........it occurs when they open their mouths.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Common sense from liberals...

    Do not engage liberals, defeat them in the arena of ideas, and eradicate their ideology from the political landscape.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Common sense from liberals...Do not engage liberals, defeat them in the arena of ideas, and eradicate their ideology from the political landscape.
    As they are trying to do to the Confederacy?
    Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. (George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905) Vol. I, Reason in Common Sense)
    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1500...-h/15000-h.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    As they are trying to do to the Confederacy?
    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1500...-h/15000-h.htm
    Only in the media. Down at the cross roads, foot up on the truck bumper, history, old and new, will not be forgotten. Runs in my veins...so to speak.

    Yankees burned the ole house back in the day and they are marching to the sea again this day.

    Did not fault the Redcoats so much, they were trying to keep theirs.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Only in the media. Down at the cross roads, foot up on the truck bumper, history, old and new, will not be forgotten. Runs in my veins...so to speak. Yankees burned the ole house back in the day and they are marching to the sea again this day. Did not fault the Redcoats so much, they were trying to keep theirs.
    I have always appreciated the differences between Savannah and Charleston that Sherman caused.

    My wife had stores in Charleston, Kiawah Island, and Savannah, and I much prefer Charleston of the two cities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Only in the media. Down at the cross roads, foot up on the truck bumper, history, old and new, will not be forgotten. Runs in my veins...so to speak.
    Sadly, turns out that you don't have to fool all of the people all of the time, only enough of them, often enough.

    What is happening to this nation's culture is terrifying. It is worse than erasing our history, it is rewriting it with a very deliberate political agenda in mind.

    Slavery cannot be justified. Not even in historical context can it be justified as evidenced by the thoughtful, introspective, and self-condemning words of some 18th century slave holders. But it is a part of history, and not just US history. Slavery was legally permitted and enforced for a lot longer under the Stars and Stripes than it was under the Stars & Bars.

    And while slavery was the ever present under-current that justified the kind of cultural divisions between North and South we typically now think of as existing between different primitive tribes, it wasn't the primary cause of anything. It was the most tangible, obvious symbol of the differences between two cultures.

    A US historian opined that if one wants to know what and who the USA is, one has to understand the War Between the States, because that war is what made us the nation we are today: for both good and ill. It was a defining moment, a cross roads for the nation and cultures.

    It has also been said that those who control history, control the future.

    Between the uncomfortable, subtle nature of our history (of all history) on the one hand and those with overt desires to shape public opinion to their desired political ends, no surprise then that the real history of the War Between the States isn't much taught in public schools.

    Due to a strange convergence of religion, geography, and history, the area of Utah in which I was raised has been known as "Utah's Dixie" since the first Mormon settlers arrived in the late 1850s. The (then single) high school and college both bore the name Dixie. And the Battle Standard flew quite freely. There was never any history of slavery, nor even notable racism in the area. Being a "rebel" in Southern Utah was never about slavery, racism, or oppression, but rather about resisting and overcoming the oppression dished out by others.

    No doubt we had a, simplified, glamorized and sanitized cultural view of things, much as so many today have an overly simplified negative view of all things southern. But it did instill in me a desire to understand the history, truly.

    Four years living in Boston did more to help me understand the War from an emotional perspective than all the books I read.

    Too much rambling and reminiscing for my old home town and culture, neither of which much exist today. I guess my point is, we do the best we can with our own children. But when 95%+ of children attend public schools ever more under the control of DC, and staffed with teachers from liberal controlled teaching colleges, it is rough going.

    I've heard it said that one reason some hate the 2nd amendment and RKBA is because guns are like a great funnel moving through the social/political space. That funnel scoops all kinds of different people--hunters, preppers, self-defense, home schoolers, conspiracy theorists, libertarians, conservatives, even some liberals, etc, etc, etc--and brings them together in ways that nothing else would. Guns are the thread that bind otherwise disparate groups together in opposition to totalitarian government control of society.

    How exactly a psychotic, murderous rampage in a black church turns into a need to ban from public display the confederate battle standard is fascinating. Terrifying, but fascinating.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Sadly, turns out that you don't have to fool all of the people all of the time, only enough of them, often enough.

    ...
    +1 and well stated Sir.

    A mere thread in the web that the anti-liberty crowd continues to weave. I know that their message does not resonate out at the crossroads. The country class have a vested interest in liberty, where as the city class have a vested interest in their own self-interest.

    History, in my neck of the woods, is passed down, not taught. I too pass down history...to those who are willing to let me bend their ear.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    +1 and well stated Sir.
    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A mere thread in the web that the anti-liberty crowd continues to weave. I know that their message does not resonate out at the crossroads. The country class have a vested interest in liberty, where as the city class have a vested interest in their own self-interest.

    History, in my neck of the woods, is passed down, not taught. I too pass down history...to those who are willing to let me bend their ear.
    We can pass down culture and history as remembered. But at some point it gets tough to kick against what is written down, "documented" as it were. As a my favorite high school history teacher explained to us so long ago, "History is what gets written down. What happened before we started writing stuff down is 'pre-historic'. It is archeology, or mythology." History is all about source document, and secondary sources. Oral traditions are less valid, at least until they are written down.

    If we surrender the class rooms, the formal research, the universities to those who value agendas over truth, we will eventually lose the culture war.

    It is for similar reasons that Christian Apologetics is important. In addition to providing rational answers for the rational questions or theories posed by honest skeptics, the apologists counter what too easily become lies and distortions of those who are less honest but desire to push an agenda hostile to religious beliefs and historic fact.

    As for the urban-rural divide: There is a whole 'nother conversation. But I tend to wind up back at federalism: local control, to enable lots of cultures to co-exist.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    What anile balderdash! No one is trying to make slavery righteous.

    The past, our history of slavery, the Confederacy and the War of Northern Aggression are what they are - the past that cannot be changed, but only re-written. No more than the various Mormon wars or traditional unpopular practices.

    Neither are the memories, the lessons and the traditions of Dixie, Dixieland, the Confederacy and its modern supporters, Southerons evil. To associate Dylann Storm Roof with these is as wrong as to associate Adam Lanza with some icon that he dallied with.

    The American Flag has flown over plenty of evil, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    What anile balderdash! No one is trying to make slavery righteous.

    The past, our history of slavery, the Confederacy and the War of Northern Aggression are what they are - the past that cannot be changed, but only re-written. No more than the various Mormon wars or traditional unpopular practices.

    Neither are the memories, the lessons and the traditions of Dixie, Dixieland, the Confederacy and its modern supporters, Southerons evil. To associate Dylann Storm Roof with these is as wrong as to associate Adam Lanza with some icon that he dallied with.

    The American Flag has flown over plenty of evil, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Fully agreed.

    Notably, of course, the Confederate Battle Standard isn't even the flag of the government of the CSA. It is the standard under which honorable soldiers took to the field of battle.

    But I've observed that it is popular to castigate rural culture generally and Southern culture in particular. I'm often reminded of the line from "A Walk in the Clouds" (I think it was) where the Mexican father says to his daugther's suitor, "Just because I speak with an accent doesn't mean I think with one." Ironically for all the self-supposed superiority of the North, the War went on as long as it did because Lincoln couldn't buy himself a decent general. Those who knew war strategy seemed to have come out of the Southern States and returned to them when war loomed.

    I note this report on Fox that says the culture war is now morphing beyond just the flag and into all symbols (and remembrances?) of the Confederacy.

    In this article former "Dukes of Hazzard" actor ("Cooter") and former congressman Ben Jones, D-Georgia, defends the flag.

    Seemingly unrelated, but I think very much cut of the same cloth is this interesting tidbit from an article about kids creating a black market in salt and sugar in response to Mrs. Obama's much despised school lunch rules.

    “Biscuits and corn muffins are part of the state’s cultural and regional food heritage, just as bagels are traditional in the Northeast and tortillas in the Southwest,” Harvey added. “These foods are very popular breakfast items; the addition of whole grain flour has created products that are dense, compact, dry, and crumbly instead of light, moist, tender, and flaky.”
    I suspect the "healthy" lunch food rules have had less impact on Northern favorite foods than on Southern favorites. If so, it is yet another subtle evidence of lack of cultural sensitivity by those who so often demand that very thing from everyone else.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  25. #25
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Thank you.
    My pleasure.

    We can pass down culture and history as remembered. But at some point it gets tough to kick against what is written down, "documented" as it were. ...
    Or, to correct the falsehoods in the "official" record. the predations the Yankees suffered upon the South after the war were far more heinous than the loss of life during the war...or says my Great Grand Pappy in a book he wrote about the war, and the aftermath, in Williamsburg County, SC.

    Charleston was spared...obviously. The earthquake of 1886 did more to Charleston than did Yankee cannon/mortor fire.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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