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Thread: Italy visit

  1. #1
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Italy visit

    On a very opulent Italian vacation not paid for by myself. I can say it is a far superior culture to America in some ways. The attention paid to food quality and dress is markedly superior. The language is obviously more mellifluous.

    How death isn't commonplace on the roads gives road libertarians in the US all the proof they need they are correct about speed limits and certain other things. I've been driving for 15 years and I wouldn't be able to handle the urban driving here without being eased into it. The taxi rides feel like a Rollercoaster.

    Most shocking is the lack of the police state feel at the airport. The "customs" guy didn't even look at my passport. The people were friendly and the facility was extremely clean. The contrast to the slave training airports in our "Homeland" is depressing.

    The police here are mixed between unarmed and armed ( beretta, of course) and wear white or blue and don't have shaved heads or flat tops. Drivers do stuff in front of them that would get the MRAPS dispatched in our "Homeland" and they don't care.

    The tap water in Rome is surprisingly good.

    Most things are smaller, doors, bathrooms, cars, portions, etc than in the "Homeland".

    From talking to an Italian, gun ownership here is not that common and [lawful] carry is nonexistent. However, ownership does exist and some places have it as part of their culture. Despite what I had read online you can own pretty much anything if it isn't full auto, and that is because of EU bs. Think California or New Jersey style hoop jumping.

    Came across a latte crudo ( raw milk) vending machine. Such would earn a swat team visit in Der Homeland.

    Just came across two soldiers in fatigues guarding some gov building. They were carrying ARX-100's.

    High unemployment here. The locals seem to not like the immigrants.

    More to follow.
    Last edited by 77zach; 06-25-2015 at 03:46 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    All aspects of firearm ownership are regulated, from purchase (Nulla Osta All'acquisto), and number, to carry and ammunition purchase.

    Autorizzazione all'acquisto di armi e munizioni
    http://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/305/
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Owning a bird gun in Italia is not "respecting" a RKBA...then again, there never was a RKBA.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Having been to Rome myself it struck me all the graffiti on the walls of ALL the buildings as high as one could reach. The parking of the little Smart cars was something to behold too, didn't seem to be rhyme or reason to it, just any spot that you could remotely squeeze in........and nobody gets tickets. The culture surely is vastly different than here in the US of A. I can agree that the driving is a hair raising experience. We were told that if we wanted to cross the street (walking) to find a nun and cross with her...... cars will stop as if Moses is parting the sea. LOL they truly did too. Italy is a beautiful country, Enjoy it to its fullest while you are there. Especially the food.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    All aspects of firearm ownership are regulated, from purchase (Nulla Osta All'acquisto), and number, to carry and ammunition purchase.

    Autorizzazione all'acquisto di armi e munizioni
    http://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/305/
    There seems to be a large difference between the "law" and what people actually do here, at least from talking to Italians and observing their attitudes.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken56 View Post
    Having been to Rome myself it struck me all the graffiti on the walls of ALL the buildings as high as one could reach. The parking of the little Smart cars was something to behold too, didn't seem to be rhyme or reason to it, just any spot that you could remotely squeeze in........and nobody gets tickets. The culture surely is vastly different than here in the US of A. I can agree that the driving is a hair raising experience. We were told that if we wanted to cross the street (walking) to find a nun and cross with her...... cars will stop as if Moses is parting the sea. LOL they truly did too. Italy is a beautiful country, Enjoy it to its fullest while you are there. Especially the food.
    I cannot figure out in Rome what counts as a street and what is for pedestrians only or both. Very chaotic and mysterious.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    I'm not making this up: the most heavily guarded and fortified building in Rome that I've seen is our "Homeland's" embassy. multiple layers of gates with guards with rifles. The Italian "white house" had far less visible security. The Italian cab driver confirmed how ridiculous everyone thought it was. Our embassy is lavish, I can't even estimate the enormous cost.

    Slave labor can get stuff done, for sure. The architectural ability of the ancient Greek and Italian people blows my mind. As someone who has a hard time drawing a cube, the designers may as well be another species of lifeform, absolute genius. I wish they hadn't "christianized" some of the older sites. For example, the temple of Romulus in the Forum of Rome (the original settlement and ancient economic center) had been mostly done over with Christian stuff much later. Same thing with the Pantheon.

    There are dress codes in some of the sites in Vatican City, funny considering there is nudity in all the artwork. The catholic religion kind of makes me a little sick. The nuns in foreign countries live in huts sometimes, and the Vatican is the most lavish place I've ever seen. The amount of money in this place I can't even guess. Opulent doesn't even begin to describe it.

    There is a peddler of "selfie sticks" every 20 yards around the major tourist attractions. Usually of Indian ancestry. Lots of Indians here.
    Last edited by 77zach; 06-25-2015 at 11:30 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  8. #8
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    they say the country has 75% of the world's objets d'art but only a paltry 25% have been properly catalogued.

    the problem the 'state' cannot afford (read refuses to pay) restoration of some of the centuries old buildings, facilities, statues, etc., so interested parties have appealed to individuals to provide philanthropic projects. one, the cleaning of the coliseum is supposedly costing one individual $150M and is being done by hand using toothbrushes and gaggles of pure distilled water. https://www.flickr.com/photos/fijian_scion/14590196196 showing the difference between clean and centuries of scum.

    enjoy the trip and hope you get to venice...smells but lovely...

    ipse
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    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

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    Regular Member FBrinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I'm not making this up: the most heavily guarded and fortified building in Rome that I've seen is our "Homeland's" embassy. multiple layers of gates with guards with rifles. The Italian "white house" had far less visible security. The Italian cab driver confirmed how ridiculous everyone thought it was. Our embassy is lavish, I can't even estimate the enormous cost.

    Slave labor can get stuff done, for sure. The architectural ability of the ancient Greek and Italian people blows my mind. As someone who has a hard time drawing a cube, the designers may as well be another species of lifeform, absolute genius. I wish they hadn't "christianized" some of the older sites. For example, the temple of Romulus in the Forum of Rome (the original settlement and ancient economic center) had been mostly done over with Christian stuff much later. Same thing with the Pantheon.

    There are dress codes in some of the sites in Vatican City, funny considering there is nudity in all the artwork. The catholic religion kind of makes me a little sick. The nuns in foreign countries live in huts sometimes, and the Vatican is the most lavish place I've ever seen. The amount of money in this place I can't even guess. Opulent doesn't even begin to describe it.

    There is a peddler of "selfie sticks" every 20 yards around the major tourist attractions. Usually of Indian ancestry. Lots of Indians here.
    Whats with all the scare quotes? Have fun while you're there. We all "miss you".

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I'd love to visit Italy and Spain. The Pit and the Pendulum for some reason inspired that desire.

    Have fun!

    Yep we may have more "gun rights" other countries seem to have a lot more freedom in the sense they simply ignore laws as a culture they don't like.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member 325rto's Avatar
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    Back in the 80's, i was stationed in Vicenza for 18 months. I visited Florence, Venice and several other towns several times. We spent a good amount of time training in the mountains, that's where I learned how to ski. We also spent a lot of time flying off to other countries for training. It was a great experience. Enjoy.

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    Of all the countries that I visited while in the USN, I enjoyed Italy the most!

    I first got to Italy by ferry from Cagliari, Sardinia, after taking a taxi from Palau nearest the island where the sub base was, and Olbia. The ferry landed at Civitaveccia, Rome's port city, and a train from there, and a taxi across Rome by the long tourist route to Da Vinci airport.

    This was just a week or so after the 1973 Palestinian attacks. The tanks were still parked discretely, I saw crewed gun emplacements on top of hangers, Polizia di Stato, Carabineri and Esercito Italiano were stationed along the terminals, with their fingers inside the trigger guards and with dogs that growled when I made eye contact.

    I was not allowed to travel on my DoD passport but was waved through on my USN ID card, not even patted down, and ALL the other passengers were searched. I was travelling with only a camera bag, going home for Christmas 1973.

    My leave was extended while the ship moved to La Spezia, near Genoa, and I flew to Genoa and taxied to La Spezia. From La Spezia we had the run of Italy by train and didn't miss many sights. We were in and out of La Spezia/La Maddelena/Santo Stefano for the next year, until after the Yom Kippur War geopolitical was stable.

    A friend qualified as ship's diver, and part of the deal was the USN would buy his kit. I spoke maybe the best Italian-ish Mexican and went with him to the tourist dive shoppe in town to translate as we spent 1.2 or 12 Million Lire (a million here, a million there, L1200/US$) on his kit.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Driving in Italian cities has pretty much been governed by meglio mai che tardi and/or si vive una volta sola. Thankfully there always seem to be a herd of nuns heading across the street in the general direction you want to go. If you use the same group to cross more than two streets be sure to offer them money for the poor.

    Back in the day the buses running overnight between cities - especially the ones using mountain roads - used to claim right of way around the hairpins by cutting off their lights. First one to cut the headlights had the right of way. Nothing like sitting on the edge of a roadway that drops several thousand feet via almost endless hairpin curves, about 20 feet from beginning of the curve, waiting to see if your driver had left enough room for the oncoming bus to complete the swing through the curve.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Dinner starts at about 10:00 pm and lasts for hours. It's not that you can't find food as good in the US, but it is much easier to find here.

    So the US embassy in Rome I guess we got for free, although upkeep must be pretty steep. It's some princess 's palace that we kind of helped ourselves to at the end of ww2.

    Had my 15 year old brother order a beer to see if they would say anything, no one cared. And the sky didn't even fall. Waiters here are salaried as part of the socialism, we're not exactly sure when and how much to tip. Credit cards are accepted most everywhere in the cities.
    Last edited by 77zach; 06-26-2015 at 04:59 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Last I knew the tipping guidelines were tip NO MORE than 10% and between 5% to 10% was acceptable. There its just a token thank you. If you haven't learned the words Bonjourno and grazzi, hello and thank you, then you need to. It goes a long way. Upon entering shops its customary to greet the owner/clerk by saying hello and a thank you in any language is always nice. Have you had the pleasure of needing to go into a bank yet? They are locked and guarded and the one I went into had lockers in the vestibule and I had to empty my pockets and use a locker before I could get in. Only 2-3 people in there at one time is all that is allowed. Quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    SNIP High unemployment here. The locals seem to not like the immigrants.
    Don't get too impressed. Remember, their "great" culture was stolen on the backs first of the victims of the Roman Late Republic and the Roman Empire. Then again during the age of Medici's.

    Back in 2009-11, Italy was one of the five PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain). The criminal governments had racked up so much interlocking debt to and from one another, if any one went down, the rest would quickly follow. I don't know that its all that much better today. I haven't heard much about them in economic blogs, but neither did I hear of any miraculous return to principles of low taxes, property rights, and productivity. In fact, it was just last year or the year before that a secession movement got some traction in Venice.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Many European countries are steeped in protectionism. The result is the protection of a few guilds and industries and trades at the cost of the rest of society. US is eager to be like that too for some insane reason.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    --snipped--

    Back in 2009-11, Italy was one of the five PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain). The criminal governments had racked up so much interlocking debt to and from one another, if any one went down, the rest would quickly follow. I don't know that its all that much better today. I haven't heard much about them in economic blogs, but neither did I hear of any miraculous return to principles of low taxes, property rights, and productivity. In fact, it was just last year or the year before that a secession movement got some traction in Venice.
    It’s Not the Economy......
    "Every debate about Greece’s financial crisis deteriorates rapidly into a discussion of deadlines..........If you’ve tried to keep up with these stories, you may become lost in economic jargon. Greece, which can no longer borrow money on capital markets, is now wholly dependent on international and European financial institutions. To ensure that they are not throwing good money after bad, these institutions have placed restrictions on Greek government spending. Greece, in turn, has sought to dodge these restrictions and negate agreements, exploiting the rules in mind-boggling ways, borrowing from one account to pay back another. It takes a special head for numbers to follow the saga."
    http://www.greekcrisis.net/

    Italy on the other hand would seem to be doing a bit better, I would surmise it is a happier place to be.
    http://www.bancaditalia.it/pubblicaz...age.language=1
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Italy is still afloat financially.

    Greece, not so much:
    "ATHENS, Greece (AP) - Greece's five-year financial crisis took its most dramatic turn to date Sunday, with the prime minister announcing Greek banks would remain shut indefinitely and restrictions would be imposed on cash withdrawals."
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/29425576/...to-remain-shut
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
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    Misleading Media

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Italy is still afloat financially.

    Greece, not so much:
    "ATHENS, Greece (AP) - Greece's five-year financial crisis took its most dramatic turn to date Sunday, with the prime minister announcing Greek banks would remain shut indefinitely and restrictions would be imposed on cash withdrawals."
    http://www.nbc12.com/story/29425576/...to-remain-shut

    I heard repeated reports on ABC news radio that the Greek government has closed banks and limited ATM withdrawals to prevent bank runs.

    Ha! Anybody who's been paying attention to this subject area knows the bank runs already started weeks ago. Billions of Euros have been flowing out Greek banks for a few weeks now as depositors pulled their money out. Two to four billion Euros a week if I recall, for maybe the last three or four weeks.

    The Greek government is playing a game of "Quick! Close the barn doors now that all the horses have bolted." One mainstream media commenter did say something that made more than usual level of sense for the mainstream media. He characterized the Greek government as playing a bluffing game with European lenders (central banks?), who called the bluff, forcing the Greek government into a corner.

    We shall see.

    Today, the Bank of International Settlement (BIS) issued a statement criticizing the tactics of central banks in keeping interest rates artificially low (while printing zillions of dollars out of thin air). Basically, the BIS warned that since the Crash of '08, the central banks of the world had used up all the arrows in their quivers propping up their economies, meaning if/when things start domino-crashing again, there are no tactics left for the central banks. Now, to get the full import of this, you have to understand what a central bank is, and what the BIS is.

    A central bank (short story) is basically a giant bank that controls the banking system in its area. Think, Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. Well, the BIS is the central bank of the central banks, in a manner of speaking. Its based in Switzerland. Bern, I think. So, when the central bank of the central banks issues a criticism of the system, you know something is up. It as though Eisenhower openly criticized all of his generals, and warned they couldn't effectively hold off the next German counter-offensive.
    Last edited by Citizen; 06-29-2015 at 09:06 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I heard repeated reports on ABC news radio that the Greek government has closed banks and limited ATM withdrawals to prevent bank runs.

    Ha! Anybody who's been paying attention to this subject area knows the bank runs already started weeks ago. Billions of Euros have been flowing out Greek banks for a few weeks now as depositors pulled their money out. Two to four billion Euros a week if I recall, for maybe the last three or four weeks.

    The Greek government is playing a game of "Quick! Close the barn doors now that all the horses have bolted." One mainstream media commenter did say something that made more than usual level of sense for the mainstream media. He characterized the Greek government as playing a bluffing game with European lenders (central banks?), who called the bluff, forcing the Greek government into a corner.

    We shall see.

    Today, the Bank of International Settlement (BIS) issued a statement criticizing the tactics of central banks in keeping interest rates artificially low (while printing zillions of dollars out of thin air). Basically, the BIS warned that since the Crash of '08, the central banks of the world had used up all the arrows in their quivers propping up their economies, meaning if/when things start domino-crashing again, there are no tactics left for the central banks. Now, to get the full import of this, you have to understand what a central bank is, and what the BIS is.

    A central bank (short story) is basically a giant bank that controls the banking system in its area. Think, Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. Well, the BIS is the central bank of the central banks, in a manner of speaking. Its based in Switzerland. Bern, I think. So, when the central bank of the central banks issues a criticism of the system, you know something is up. It as though Eisenhower openly criticized all of his generals, and warned they couldn't effectively hold off the next German counter-offensive.
    Don't worry fiat banker Jimmy Stewart will save the day!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Don't worry fiat banker Jimmy Stewart will save the day!
    can we entice trump to do the same for PR?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Convince Bloomie to buy his own country via bail out, move there and leave the USA alone.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Did a boat tour of capri, stopping to swim in various cool places like the blue, green, white grottos. Some some amazing yachts, one with a helicopter on it. Felt like I was in a rapper's MTV music video. Went to Positano and had a $100 dinner. Ate next to some high rollers in the restaurant, saw some seriously silly rich people, Saudi oil/royalty there with men who were carrying concealed.

    For the money my aunt paid it is amazing. The accommodations are EMACULATE. A five star place here is MUCH nicer than five star places I've been to in the US.

    Overall, I believe the culture here is freer, but the tyranny of the state is in some ways worse than in the US. The disconnect between the people and the statist ruling class may be bigger than in the US. You can buy fireworks that would be illegal in the US. You can drive in a way most nanny staters in the US would consider "reckless driving" (traffic laws exist here but seem to be generally unenforced and disregarded with impunity), and the food ingredients are much better and fresher than in the US across ALL price points. These are the only things I can say with confidence I like better than in the US.

    Good break from the police state. In Rome saw a small number of police cars, "Polizia Roma Capitale", little hatchbacks. Outside Rome and other major cities: ZERO.


    Oh, and Italian customs... a smile and a nod without looking at my passport. We'll see if I get detained on July 4th. United is saying 1 hour delays in US customs for "enhanced security" reasons. At least the Italians don't have such a hypocritical holiday celebrating faux freedom.
    Last edited by 77zach; 07-03-2015 at 09:53 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    SNIP Some some amazing yachts, one with a helicopter on it.
    Years ago, I parked my modest little compact car one empty space beyond a hot new Dodge Viper.

    When I came out the store a couple young fellas were standing next to the Viper, admiring. As I approached, the devil persuaded me to ask the young fellas, "So, what do you think of my Viper?" I don't recall their exact words anymore, but they were definitely envious and all "wow" and that sort of thing.

    I have a feeling I woulda had that same impulse near those yachts.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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