stealthyeliminator
Regular Member
I honestly think that I would.
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SCOTUS makes a good call for once!
- Thread starter DrakeZ07
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twoskinsonemanns
Regular Member
Got to admire a man of principles.
Perhaps a new strategy for gun grabbers: A period of tax exemption for businesses that ban firearms, a move even some 2A advocates would support.
Perhaps a new strategy for gun grabbers: A period of tax exemption for businesses that ban firearms, a move even some 2A advocates would support.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Great post up until this part. This is the part I'd disagree with. Not saying its right for states to infringe upon rights, but a sovereign state is a sovereign state if its not in the enumerated powers of the constitution for the Feds to do it then its a state power.
Now personally I feel the state shouldn't have the power either.
Liberty-or-Death
Regular Member
Actually, they're Baptist.
It's my duty to protect the flock and I take it seriously.Riiiiight! I’ve heard THAT line before! Oh boy! LOL!
stealthyeliminator
Regular Member
Got to admire a man of principles.
Perhaps a new strategy for gun grabbers: A period of tax exemption for businesses that ban firearms, a move even some 2A advocates would support.
You also must admire when one acknowledges and respects another's views even when they aren't in perfect agreement. In that regard you've raised the bar for me. Thank you.
nonameisgood
Regular Member
States don't have rights (to the quote you quote) they have powers (as you rightly say.)
But a "sovereign" state does not have everything not "given" to the fed by the Constitution. Certain things are indeed rights and not subject to government authority. Some are enumerated, some are natural, and some simply are. We should not get in the habit of saying that states (or voters) can do whatever they want if not otherwise prohibited.
I deal in the world of building codes. Some things are permitted. Some things are prohibited. The rest are up to the owner, designer, or builder as long as they do not create a hazard. It is all about contracts and money. I view this similarly. Some rights and powers are enumerated as included or excluded, retained or delegated. The rest are up the individual and not always subject to an action or decision of the majority. Without some overriding public interest, there shouldn't be government action or a ballot-imposed rule. Occasionally, courts need to intervene to prevent overreach by the politicians, regulators, or voters. Just because a majority of voters an be convinced to vote for something doesn't make it right.
utbagpiper
Banned
As much as it may gall some to be reminded of this, the 1st amendment protection of the free EXERCISE of religion does create a very strong justification for treating churches differently than other organizations. That enumerated right is about far more than just believing as one sees fit. Even the Soviets allowed gulag prisoners to believe as they saw fit. It was outward expressions of belief that caused problems.
Similarly, religiously motivated conduct is granted more protections than other conduct. Thus, American Indian use of Peyote as a sacrament is constitutionally protected while mere recreational use of the drug can be banned. Even constitutionally imposed Prohibition did not presume to prevent consumption of wine as a religious sacrament.
The 1st amendment provides special protections for religiously motivated conduct and for churches, just as the 2nd amendment provides special protections for the ownership and possession of firearms.
Furthermore, like secular non-profits, churches do much good in the nation. They tend to teach values--sexual morality, private charity, honesty, love of neighbor, etc--that if adhered to reduce reliance on social programs and reduce crime. Many provide direct charitable assistance to those in need. Many host Boy Scout units and other youth groups, addiction recovery programs, child rearing classes, etc. Buildings are often used for a variety of community functions including hosting the aforementioned groups and classes.
It is typically the left leaning among us who view tax breaks as some kind of government support as if all money belonged to the government and government allowing any of us to keep any of it is a form of direct government support. Perhaps there are some who sincerely believe that ALL organizations should be treated exactly like individuals or for-profit businesses when it comes to taxes. That would eliminate some of the encouragement of donating to the local Goodwill; opera, theater, or symphony organization; food bank or homeless shelter; YMCA or Big Brothers/Big Sisters, etc.
But as some have made clear, most of those who object to churches' tax status are simply hostile to religion.
Which I find grossly hypocritical from anyone who supports RKBA.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
THAT is an utter and complete falsehood, Logan. Total BS. If you actually believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (aka "The Mormons") even asks for, much less requires W2s or signed contracts on tithing you are grossly ignorant. If you know better, but respond thusly, you are lying.
I don't what every church does, but I've been a member of the LDS Church my entire life, observant for most of it. The LDS Church teaches tithing as a law of God, revealed in the Bible and reaffirmed in modern revelation. Members are expected to live that law if they wish to participate in all church sacraments. But nothing beyond simple self-declaration is ever required. A person simply tells his local clergy whether he lives that law or doesn't. End of story. No W2s, no audits of personal income, no contracts.
Not only does the church never ask for nor examine W2s, but under policy and teachings, nobody in the church is to even presume to tell another whether tithing is to be paid on gross or net income, or exactly how one is to calculate "income" for purposes of tithing. We teach simply that God expects a man to pay "10% of his increase annually". Each person is expected to determine exactly what that means in private prayer with God.
Now, there are plenty of things about my church that can be legitimately taken as strange by those not of the faith. Some teachings and doctrines are offensive to some persons. As with every religion, there are those things that can easily appear strange when taken out of the context of the larger religious beliefs. There are those things that even many observant members will readily admit are funny, odd, or strange. There is no need to spread falsehoods either ignorantly nor maliciously about the LDS Church.
Please refrain from doing so in future. You would not want someone to bear false witness against you or yours.
Charles
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utbagpiper
Banned
I sincerely hope you do not represent many others in any community.
The sentiments you've just expressed are among the most reprehensible, small-minded, offensive, bigoted, hateful and dangerous I've ever seen here. Others have expressed hatred and bigotry on rare occasion. Some have supported what we consider to be abuses of certain rights.
But rarely have I seen anyone express a desire to destroy a fundamental, constitutionally enumerated right in this forum so directly and bluntly as you have done here. And the hash tag you've employed at least implies a desire for government or other force to be brought to bear against that right. Even those who have resorted to offensive words to describe some sexual behaviors have rarely suggested force be used to ban such conduct among consenting adults.
Additionally, for anyone who opposes bigotry and discrimination against himself to hold and express such a hostile, even violent view is the rankest and grossest of hypocrisy.
It is beyond my belief that any mature, educated, civil human being in this nation can hold or express such a view as this. I am beyond appalled and nearly without civil words to express my utter disgust and contempt.
You have no legitimacy to ever again complain bigotry expressed or manifested towards you.
Unlike you and your desires toward my freedom of conscience and free exercise of religion, I hope no ill ever befalls you. I hope you have full opportunity to live out your live in peace with freedom of conscience, association, and peaceful expression of your beliefs.
Charles
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
You can personally vouch for every Mormon church in the world?
Dude, are you a reincarnation of that guy with many wifes who was a Prophet of God during the times of Early America? You might be, if you know sooooo much.
Wait, you can't be. You're running around calling people liars, when you realistically cannot of verified that the Church Logan5 said HE WENT TO did or did not require tax information. Sooooo not spiritual. bad karma, no donut.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Hey, you purchased a mirror. Cool.
utbagpiper
Banned
I can vouch for what I know, first hand. That includes what I've personally witnessed over my lifetime across multiple LDS congregations, what has been preached, and what is contained in leadership guidebooks.
What can you vouch for, personally, regarding any of that?
You clearly have a real problem with the LDS church, me, and Utah. Why don't you grow up and get over it?
If I were living in your State, claiming to be a pro-RKBA activist, but getting my rear handed to me by gun grabbers the way you are, I might be a little less arrogant and pompous toward those who have actually had success in defending and advancing RKBA (and statutory recognition for the ability to carry a gun for self defense) along with those States among the best in the nation for such respect.
Check your small minded bigotry, dust off your bruised ego, and get off your horse of personal insults and sniping toward me, my religion, and my State.
Your reading comprehension is lacking. Logan never said the church he went to required it. He simply attempted to link the Mormon church to a practice in which that Church doesn't engage. I also didn't call him a liar. I said his allegation was in error and he either made that allegation from ignorance or from lying. If he wants to come back and claim a third option of some Mormon clergy actually requiring W2s and contracts, I'll ask him to post the copy of the contract that he obviously would have kept along with the name of the clergy member, the congregation name, congregation location, and the year it happened.
Logan will do none of this because no Mormon clergy ever asked to see his W2s and certainly never gave him any "tithing contract" to sign. Nor did he ever claim such happened to him, personally. Because it didn't. He just tried to link the Mormon church to such a practice. Indeed, Liberty-or-Death has made clear he was referring to a church other than the Mormon church. And even there, I suspect it is the conduct of an independent congregation rather than the general policy of some larger convention.
Now, drop your bigotry and move on.
Charles
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Free to do something is different than "free loader all you want on our tax dollars."
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
I vouch you accused someone of being a liar, based on what you later admitted was your own limited first hand anecdotal evidence.
Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
Yeah, like Reverend Sharpton tossing out the race card.
I'll let others judge if you called him a liar or not.
Charles said:
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Dave_pro2a
Regular Member
I admire how you kept your naive, childhood faith intact all the way to... however old you are today.
It's neat.utbagpiper
Banned
So you're one of those leftists/socialists who thinks not having some amount taken from you in taxes is the same as receiving tax money.
Such muddled wrong headed "thinking" explains a lot.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
I admire how you kept your naive, childhood faith intact all the way to... however old you are today.
Your posts attacking me and my religion in various snide ways are entirely off topic, inappropriate, and offensive.
Please stop it.
utbagpiper
Banned
And if it turns out he was, actually lying?
Then what?
Will you have and manifest the same moral outrage?
Or is it ok to lie about religions you don't like?
How about you let Logan defend himself for a bit and you get back on topic?
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J_dazzle23
Regular Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2013
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- 643
LOL at anyone that thinks the LDS church has some "donation agreement" or w2 to fill out. What a load.
It's quite a public church on its tenants. There is no bait and switch, it's quite up front in it's beliefs.
Got some haters up in here lol.
There's plenty that a logical person may find abnormal about the LDS church. It's pretty hilarious it takes a stretch like that to make a point.
It's quite a public church on its tenants. There is no bait and switch, it's quite up front in it's beliefs.
Got some haters up in here lol.
There's plenty that a logical person may find abnormal about the LDS church. It's pretty hilarious it takes a stretch like that to make a point.
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