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Thread: Founding Enemies: What Did Lincoln Really Think of Jefferson? NYT Op-Ed

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    Founding Enemies: What Did Lincoln Really Think of Jefferson? NYT Op-Ed

    [ ... ]
    “Mr. Lincoln hated Thomas Jefferson as a man,” wrote William Henry Herndon, Lincoln’s law partner of 14 years — and “as a politician.” Especially after Lincoln read Theodore F. Dwight’s sensational, slash-all biography of Jefferson in 1839, Herndon believed “Mr. Lincoln never liked Jefferson’s moral character after that reading.”
    [ ... ]
    History is neither a political fable in which all the brothers are valiant and all the sisters virtuous, nor is it a tabloid exposé, full of crimes and follies, signifying nothing but victimization. There is, I admit, a caustic delight in unveiling the frailties of our Jeffersons (and our Lincolns). But the delight turns malevolent when it serves only to strip the American past of anything remarkable or exceptional, or when it demeans or discourages civic engagement and confidence.

    Patriotism without criticism has no head; criticism without patriotism has no heart. Lincoln was capable of understanding both the greatness and the limits of Thomas Jefferson and the founders and still come out at the end embracing the American experiment for “giving liberty, not alone to the people of this country, but hope to the world for all future time.” And so should we.

    Allen C. Guelzo is a professor of the Civil War era at Gettysburg College and the author, most recently, of “Gettysburg: The Last Invasion. [My emphasis]”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/04/op...dayspaper&_r=0
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    Well, of course Lincoln would dislike Jefferson. No surprises there.

    Jefferson was a secessionist! (And, a successful one at that!)

    And, Jefferson demolished Lincoln's justifications for making war on the southern states long before Lincoln even tried it: The Kentucky Resolves (1798?). The Kentucky Resolves were a response to the alien and sedition acts. Do take a moment to look it up and read the document. It provides an interesting analysis of the relationship between the state and the central government. Frequently cited is the 10th Amendment (power not delegated is reserved).
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Something popped to mind while writing the post above. Its related to state powers.

    Did y'all Virginians know that the ratifying convention inserted language into the ratification document protecting their right to leave the union? Several years ago I read a little analysis on this point that made a lot of sense. It boiled down to this: when Congress accepted the ratification document, it also accepted the reservation, meaning it was legally binding on the fedgov. Meaning, Lincoln making war on VA to prevent its secession was doubly without legal justification.

    Here's an excerpt of VA's ratification document. How important was this point to the VA ratifying convention? Its in the very first paragraph:

    We the Delegates of the People of Virginia duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly and now met in Convention having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us to decide thereon Do in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will... (June 6, 1788)

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/ratva.asp
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    [ ... ]
    “Mr. Lincoln hated Thomas Jefferson as a man,” wrote William Henry Herndon, Lincoln’s law partner of 14 years — and “as a politician.”
    AHhh Lincoln. Hating the people who started the country he helped ruin. That makes PERFECT sense.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

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    "Founding"? I don't think Lincoln is considered a founding father...is he?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStack View Post
    "Founding"? I don't think Lincoln is considered a founding father...is he?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

    He founded the new, new America.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 07-06-2015 at 12:45 AM.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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