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Thread: Seattle council prez wants to tax guns, ammo

  1. #1
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    Seattle council prez wants to tax guns, ammo

    Seattle council president eyes tax on guns, ammo, but is it legal?

    A proposal to charge a $25 tax on the sale of each firearm in Seattle, plus five cents for every round of ammunition sold in the city — reported this morning by the Seattle Times and various other news agencies — mirrors a gun control effort mounted three years ago in Cook County, Illinois, where it has not had any visible impact on the mayhem in Chicago.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/seat...ut-is-it-legal
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-25-2015 at 05:40 PM. Reason: rule #19

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    "Dead on arrival."

    Seattle will likely be sued if one bill or both become law, Burgess says. The state’s pre-emption statute prohibits municipalities from regulating firearms, including their “registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation … or any other element.” It also says they can enact “only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law.”

    The pre-emption statute is why Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Bellevue-based Second Amendment Foundation, says a Seattle tax is “dead on arrival.”
    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...-on-gun-sales/

    Preemption statutes without enforcement teeth are anile.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    That covers this so many ways I can't even count. Open and shut case. Hope SAF has a field day with them. I just donated another $150 to SAF. They do good work. If any of you guys have some extra loose change hanging around throw it to them, they'll use it to help keep down bad laws like this.

    https://www.saf.org/?page_id=66
    Last edited by Alpine; 07-08-2015 at 12:52 PM.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    The real irony is that those same people wildly in favor of ammunition taxes as a disguised form of gun control would be outraged if there were a per-word tax on political pamphlets as a disguised way to stifle speech...even though such a tax would be equally legal and equally constitutional.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    A tax on political pamphlets as a disguised way to stifle speech...even though such a tax would be equally legal and equally constitutional.
    The prediction of some animals being "more" equal..................there would have to be exceptions for some..........sounds and looks familiar.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 07-08-2015 at 06:33 PM.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...-on-gun-sales/

    Preemption statutes without enforcement teeth are anile.
    +1. The pre-emption statute provides no apparent penalty for those entities that violate, or attempt to violate, the statute.

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    Seattle’s proposed gun, ammo tax based on fantasy?

    When Seattle City Council President Tim Burgess was interviewed yesterday by KOMO’s Lindsay Cohen, he asserted that, “Gun violence is a huge problem in our city, in our region and frankly in our whole country. We have an epidemic of gun violence,” but does the crime data back that up?

    http://www.examiner.com/article/seat...sed-on-fantasy
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-25-2015 at 05:41 PM. Reason: rule #19

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    The Tax Man

    It is interesting to take note the document cited in Dave Workman's article. It looks to me like this has Dan Satterburg written all over it.

    Note the use of the terms in the document cite "device" being inclusive as a firearm, just as 594 did.

    The use of the term "device" means taxable ammunition now includes 12 gauge star shells for all King county boaters, and nail gun charges for all King County builders who use them.
    I wonder how King County is going to enforce the "ammunition" tax?

    I suppose you could just run down to Pierce county and spend your money there.


    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    +1. The pre-emption statute provides no apparent penalty for those entities that violate, or attempt to violate, the statute.
    As noted in another thread:

    RCW 9.41.810

    Penalty.
    Any violation of any provision of this chapter, except as otherwise provided, shall be a misdemeanor and punishable accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    When Seattle City Council President Tim Burgess was interviewed yesterday by KOMO’s Lindsay Cohen, he asserted that, “Gun violence is a huge problem in our city, in our region and frankly in our whole country. We have an epidemic of gun violence,” but does the crime data back that up?
    uh, we have a bigger problem of homelessness and some dipstick project along the waterfront than this mythological epidemic of gun violence.

    I was in San Francisco over the Independence Day weekend, and went to the area where the woman was randomly shot with a stolen gov't official's handgun. No one avoided the area. I didn't even see extra police (saw very few, in fact).

    I hate politicians that cry wolf.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    A few questions:

    -Would the first or second level courts be likely to suspend these city statutes pending the duration of the inevitable appeals fight? Or would they go into effect regardless? If the statutes are eventually struck down and the taxes weren't suspended, will the FFLs get refunds? Can they sue for damages if they were driven out of business in the meantime?

    -Is there any caselaw to support this absurd notion by Pete Holmes that this isn't related to "firearms law?"

    -How can a 70-100% tax (think $0.05 on 22LR here) NOT be considered excessive and punitive and impairing our rights under the WA state Constitution section 24?
    Last edited by Alpine; 07-17-2015 at 06:50 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Open

    Carry

    Topic?

    Nope.
    "I'm just a no-account screed-peddler" Dave Workman http://goo.gl/CNf6pB

    "We ought to extend the [1994] assault weapons ban" George W Bush

    "The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban today on almost all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles." George Bush Sr, New York Times on July 8, 1989

    "I support the Brady bill and I urge the Congress to enact it without delay." Ronald Regan.

    "Guns are an abomination." Richard Nixon

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    Can't open carry if you can't own guns.


    IF this doesn't get thrown out the libs will use the media to make a huge stink about how "awful" preemption is then they'll go for it at the state level or these taxes at the state level.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Our current state preemption laws could be in jeopardy with just one referendum. Big anti-gun money and a big liberal voting turnout from the Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia crowd is all it would take.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    And the lawsuit is a go.

    Start chipping in to the SAF everyone. I put in $150.

    http://www.saf.org/?p=7320

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    And the lawsuit is a go.

    Start chipping in to the SAF everyone. I put in $150.

    http://www.saf.org/?p=7320
    10-4!

    SAF, NRA and NSSF all got releases out about the same time. This is the first time that all three groups have been involved in a joint lawsuit.



    Counter strike: 2A groups, industry sue Seattle over gun, ammo tax

    http://www.examiner.com/article/coun...r-gun-ammo-tax

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    10-4!

    SAF, NRA and NSSF all got releases out about the same time. This is the first time that all three groups have been involved in a joint lawsuit.



    Counter strike: 2A groups, industry sue Seattle over gun, ammo tax

    http://www.examiner.com/article/coun...r-gun-ammo-tax
    Here's another article about the lawsuit:

    BREAKING: SAF, NSSF, NRA Team Up in Lawsuit Against Seattle’s Firearms Tax

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    FOLLOW-UP:

    Gun ban lobby’s response to Seattle lawsuit ignores letter of law

    Almost immediately after news broke yesterday that gun rights and firearms industry groups had filed a lawsuit against Seattle’s gun and ammunition tax, the gun prohibition lobbying group, Washington Alliance for Gun Responsibility (WAGR), was lamenting that these groups were engaging in “obstructionist tactics.”

    http://www.examiner.com/article/gun-...-letter-of-law
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-25-2015 at 05:42 PM. Reason: rule #19

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Open

    Carry

    Topic?

    Nope.
    Perfectly acceptable topic - effects RKBA including OC within the state.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    "Obstructionist tactics"? Yeah, obstructing tryanny; obstructing lawlessness; obstructing criminal acts; obstructing violations of the constitution.
    Preach it Gutshot, I am standing with you mate.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

  21. #21
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Judge upholds Seattle 'gun violence tax'


  22. #22
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    King County Superior Court Judge Palmer Robinson dismissed arguments that Seattle's tax, adopted last summer, exceeded the city's authority under state law.
    Consumers must not contribute to this infringement for the sake of mere convenience.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bill45's Avatar
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    This is the way the "conservative" members of the U.S. supreme court got around the "penalty" for not getting Obamacare, by calling it a "Tax". So now the antiguners are finding this may work to make it more difficult to sell guns and ammo.
    It can be argued that a tax does not regulate the sale of a firearm or ammunition ( I disagree) and any city or county is able to raise taxes as they see fit.
    If this action by Seattle makes it to the state supreme court and is found legal then look forward to similar taxes in every anti gun city and county in the state. They all are, if nothing else, looking to raise revenue.

    This hurts the poor more than anyone. Which is the history of gun control. "We gotta keep them peasants away from getting weapons"

    Buy ammo on line while you still can.
    Last edited by Bill45; 12-23-2015 at 12:18 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill45 View Post
    SNIP

    Buy ammo on line while you still can.
    Watch those of us who do that get the shaft from the state like those who purchased cigarettes online.

    People have lost homes, cars, etc due to the state's lust for money.

    Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Seattle gun shop will move; is that what city is really after?

    The owner of a Seattle gun store, and one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit challenging the city’s so-called “gun violence tax,” has announced that as of Jan. 1, sales of firearms and ammunition at the business, located on Aurora Avenue, will cease as a result of yesterday’s ruling by a King County Superior Court judge upholding the tax.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/seat...s-really-after



    http://www.examiner.com/article/judg...vows-to-appeal
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-23-2015 at 10:37 PM. Reason: rule #19

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