Trolling....why open carry?

Kadmos said:

I live in part of a polite society. I have no interest in scaring people.



Carrying concealed isn't about furthering gun rights, it's about the ability to protect yourself. Open carry by it's nature is essentially a form of public protest.

On the King quote, sorry but it doesn't track. A person can't help the color of their skin. Open carry is a choice.

On a side note, I think a lot of gun owners of all stripes are very disingenuous with the "lump of metal or plastic". Sure, a gun is a tool. But a feather duster is also a tool. People generally don't call the police to say a person is carrying a feather duster while walking down the street. Guns, bombs, hand grenades are different from feather dusters, lint rollers, or Elmer's glue.

Sorry, but this is a big thing for me, I don't believe in making bad arguments just to support my position. I think it's dishonest. Yes, it's a gun, yes I could easily kill multiple people with it. But no, I'm not going to do anything with it that will make the people around me nervous. In all likelihood none of my neighbors even know I own guns.



I expected to take heat. I came for reasonable discussion, hopefully good conversation. You have every right to not give a hoot how I feel about it. I have every right to think people who open carry make other gun owners look bad.



True. I'm not a fan of tattoos or piercings, but no one thinks someone is going to pull a tattoo out and murder people with it.

This comes back to "reasonable fear". If you cause another person a reasonable fear of injury or death then that's assault. Should a person be reasonably scared of you walking down the street with a gun? Honestly, I can't answer that, because I don't know you, I've never seen you. But it's safe to assume most juries are going to think there is more to reasonably fear from a man walking down the street with tattoos and a gun, than just tattoos.

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You choose to cater yourself to the attention of others. That's your choice. You want to fit in and not come across as too scary. That's all fine and dandy, and I won't ridicule your decision.

But many of us are not that type of person. It's one thing to refrain from cussing in front of strangers, and being polite / courteous. But it stops at self defense. The safety of myself and my family is more important than someone's emotional feelings on firearms.

It's not a protest, for me. It's not political. It's for protection, and to exercise my right to self defense.

I am confused by those who nearly soil themselves at the sight of a legally open carried holstered firearm, but walk around oblivious to the punk with the handgun shoved into his waistband covered with a "too large" team jersey, or shoved into the pocket of his "waist 1/2 way to his knees" over sized jeans.

wethepeople said:

I think the answer as to you being against OC is the way you were raised. You said the firearms were locked up and only taken out to target practice, and you, for some reason think someone seeing a firearm in a holster is "rude", really? why would you believe an OCied firearm is rude? alot of anti-2A people would feel the same. We as a society have been brain washed to believe we MUST hide our guns because its just too taboo for people to see them in public, thats a problem.

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You have a good point there. The guns were locked up in dad's office, I wasn't allowed in his office without permission ....I don't think because of the guns specifically, but because it was his space in general. But my brother and I were specifically told not to tell anyone, especially our friends, that he owned guns.

They did have a very taboo sense to them. Which may be why I was drawn to them, but am also perhaps overly hesitant (for lack of a better word) about them at the same time.

My father was the first gun owner on either side of my family.

wethepeople said:

You said you went to gun shows, were all the guns on the tables a display of rude behavior? No? then what is wrong with OC? You see you have fallen for the one lie that keeps getting told. You should hide your firearm or you will be causing unneeded panic, this too is a lie, yea maybe someone will not like the fact, but thousands of people didnt die to protect someone feelings. I dont know where you live but I can tell you after OCing for around 8 yrs I have only had one negative encounter. before you buy into all the anti-OC lies, maybe you should get together with some people who actually OC, go to a meet and see for yourself. BTW, if someone is against OC, then they dont fully support the 2A, they are just gun owners, IMO.

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While I will stipulate to the taboo, I think it's reason that tells me there is a context to a gun's location.

Locked up, no worries.
Unloaded and strapped at a gun show, no worries.
Sitting on the mantle of a fireplace, no worries.
Concealed carry, what they don't know won't hurt them.
On a cops hip, I hope he's not in a bad mood....let's not poke the bear just in case.
On a private citizens hip,....does he look sane? Maybe I should put myself between him and my kid? Lets say "aware, and hesitant" about it.
The way that cannot be named....I won't go there
In someone's hand, very aware, stuff might be getting real
Pointed at me, well that one is obvious...things are bad.


You make an excellent point about "reality vs perception", 8 years of walking around and only one negative encounter is the reality, a couple dozen videos on youtube of mostly negative really skews the perception.


I just wanted to thank you all for the wonderful conversation so far. I was getting a bit annoyed watching those videos. You all have already made some very good thought provoking points, and I already feel my position softening somewhat on the issue. I'm going to step away for dinner, but I promise to drop back by and try to reply to everyone.

I know several people who CC rather than OC. They have their beliefs about it; I do not try to argue with them, I just point out they have an opinion contrary to mine and just as I do not argue against CC they are free to not voice their arguments to me. There are a good number of people here in NC that must OC because they cannot obtain the required permission slip to CC. The default mode according to our state constitution and our courts is OC. I would rather both modes be lawful everywhere without interference, or permission, from government.

Here is a link to an article courtesy of VA Open Carry: http://www.virginiaopencarry.org/

bc.cruiser said:

I know several people who CC rather than OC. They have their beliefs about it; I do not try to argue with them, I just point out they have an opinion contrary to mine and just as I do not argue against CC they are free to not voice their arguments to me. There are a good number of people here in NC that must OC because they cannot obtain the required permission slip to CC. The default mode according to our state constitution and our courts is OC. I would rather both modes be lawful everywhere without interference, or permission, from government.

Here is a link to an article courtesy of VA Open Carry: http://www.virginiaopencarry.org/

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To be blunt, I don't care or could I do anything about others mode of carry. I have gotten tired, so very tired of this rude behavior of hoplophobes trying to tell others how to conduct their lives. I have long lost patience, especially for the name calling on other sites. Which is not returned by OCers, some on other sites have called for swatting open carriers, mind you this is from supposed gun owners, conceal carry only fanatics.

One thing I might add, and I want you to sit back and REALLY think about this. People are mostly made up of sheep, sheep is the term I use for people who only follow whats "popular"no? So, lets say more and more people started to OC, (lawfully) I would bet there would be even more people OCing, because now its a common practice. If you saw 5 OCiers a day, then 10 and so on, it would become "normal" in the eyes of the CC only zealots, how many do you think would OC then? Back in the day the airplane was invented, those wright bros were crazy and insane, but what about now? See my point? Thats one of the things some of us are trying to do, normalize the lawfully OC of a firearm. When people are afraid to show Liberty, then the other side has won. Yes, there are 2 sides and I can bet you understand what side most of us are on. Also, as was said before, CC doesnt do one single thing for the 2A.

Why wear an yamaka in public some find it offensive?

wethepeople said:

One thing I might add, and I want you to sit back and REALLY think about this. People are mostly made up of sheep, sheep is the term I use for people who only follow whats "popular"no? So, lets say more and more people started to OC, (lawfully) I would bet there would be even more people OCing, because now its a common practice. If you saw 5 OCiers a day, then 10 and so on, it would become "normal" in the eyes of the CC only zealots, how many do you think would OC then? Back in the day the airplane was invented, those wright bros were crazy and insane, but what about now? See my point? Thats one of the things some of us are trying to do, normalize the lawfully OC of a firearm. When people are afraid to show Liberty, then the other side has won. Yes, there are 2 sides and I can bet you understand what side most of us are on. Also, as was said before, CC doesnt do one single thing for the 2A.

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Sheep (sheeple) is the term for people who do not engage in their own defense - that and they may also follow the flock.

Kudos on your attitude in your investigation with us.

It's hot here. I wear tucked-in shirts. Where do you want me to put my full-size firearm? OC is way more comfortable.

I also live somewhere where mostly no one cares, so that's a bonus. I've been OC'ing for 22 years. Back then, it was unheard of, and in the first 10-15 years of that, we had some issues that have been mostly straightened out, ONLY because people were doing it, and therefore causing the education of the cops and government officials who were themselves the ones that were breaking laws, some ignorantly, some purposely. The sheriff's office here still does, and very purposely and unapologetically. You talk about setting an example? You'd think they would be the ones doing it.

Bearing arms is a right, not a licensed privilege, in my state. Only concealing requires a license. There are many people who have not, for whatever reason, paid the significant amount of money and time, and fingerprinting invasion of privacy, to deal with having said license. Good for them. You want them to conceal for YOUR sake? Fine, make it a right, not a privilege, and many of them will do so on occasions where it suits them.

Obviously, time is going to take its toll, but you can look through Nevada's "OC - How did it go" thread and get bored very quickly with all the "nobody cared" comments. Most of us have stopped posting simply because we have nothing interesting to say.

My friend and I OC'd to the Twin Peaks restaurant for lunch today. Afterward, he went to the state DMV offices to conduct business; yes, still OC'ing. Welcome to Nevada. We OC at our banks, too.

When you look neat and professional, people assume you are a good guy, whether you are armed or not. I don't dress like a thug, so I never have people wondering my intentions with anything. For that matter, OC'ing is a clear indicator that someone is NOT about to commit a crime. Criminals don't OC.

I'm an advocate, but not an activist. Most OC'ers are probably the same. I OC for me, not for political reasons. It's nicely American to enjoy that freedom in most places.

Kadmos said:

... I was getting a bit annoyed watching those videos. ...

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Me, too. There are attention wh0res in every facet of life, on both sides of every argument, including the correct side, if there is one.

That said, not all those videos are attention-whoring. You have to sift through the ones that are to find the jewels that have made a difference in someone in power being educated and freedoms being recognized because of the effort.

Imagine how much more quickly the civil rights movement would have spread if there were YouTube videos of all the injustices being spread like wildfire, impossible to ignore.

Kadmos said:

Basically, why open carry?

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For me, a couple of reasons.

A few times a year I OC for overt political reasons: to advertise to the world that I am exercising my rights. I OC to vote, primary and general elections. I OC on Independence Day: to my city's carnival/midway events, to the parade, to watch the fireworks that night. I will sometimes OC to capital for the same reason.

Most of the time, I carry my self-defense firearm(s) in the manner that makes the most sense for me that day.

A concealed gun, especially a little pocket gun, is most comfortable and convenient for me while working around my yard, on the car, or engaging in certain recreational activities like riding off-road motorcycles, snow skiing etc.

My full sized 1911 is most comfortably carried Outside Waistband. In warm weather, that is OC. In cooler weather, it gets covered (somewhat) by my jacket and becomes CC or casually CC.

A side benefit of OCing, when I do, is that I believe it helps to normalize the notion that regular citizens can and do carry firearms. How much it helps is debatable simply because I believe so few people ever notice the gun. Most people are not looking for a gun, it is a bit rude to stare at another person's waistline, and I think most people's brains simply replace that block blob on my belt with a cell phone.

I've literally stood in front of the table our election officials sit behind, my OC'd, full-sized 1911 at their eye level, and gone on for 10 minutes chatting with the official I knew, before the one I didn't know finally realized I had a gun. "I didn't notice your gun," she said. "He always carries a gun," laughed the official I knew. And after 10 minutes of friendly chatting it isn't like the realization a gun was present suddenly made me appear dangerous. A novelty perhaps. Nothing more. Sometimes nobody notices the gun until I take the "I Voted" sticker and place it on my retention holster. Did I mention my regular polling place the last several years has been in a middle school? Perfectly legal for me to OC there, with my home-State carry permit, under my State's laws as well as federal law.

Over some 25 of not-daily, but regular OCing, I've only had one negative experience. That was with a cop, when I was just getting started and looked even younger than I was.

I can't claim the 1000-to-4 ratio another does because in 25 years I simply haven't had 1000 obvious interactions. I've had thousands of non-interactions. I get 100 times more attention when I wear my kilt than when I OC. And to OC in a kilt is like hiding the gun in plain sight: nobody seems to ever notice the gun; the kilt draws all the attention, most all of that positive.

I do believe in being polite and what constitutes polite depends somewhat on location. I can easily imagine there are cities/States where OCing into a school would be so unusual, so beyond cultural norms, as to create a panic even if technically legal. If such a location exists, maybe gun carriers wishing to advance social acceptance of carrying guns would be well advised to avoid the schools for a while, while carrying in less "sensitive" areas, working on positive media coverage of OC events, etc. But here in Utah, not really much of an issue for fat, balding, middle-aged guys dressed and behaving civilly to OC into a school to vote, or to attend a child's events, etc.

Welcome to the site.

Charles

Once again I'm chopped liver

A page and a half after I posed a series of questions the OP has replied/responded to comments by others, but it seems he can't be bothered to answer me.

Yes, my widdle fweelings are hurted and I'm feeling ignored, micro-aggressed, and maybe even triggered.

Well, I'll sit here in the corner, snuffling out what passes for my heart, waiting to see if the OP will answer me.

stay safe.

Reaction of people to OC largely depends on where you live, ST Louis, you are at the meeting of East and West so there are many pantie wetters. Here in the REAL WEST my biggest problem encountered is people stopping me to thank me for carrying and wanting to talk guns.

Mothers day a couple years ago (living in Grand Junction CO) the wife wanted to go to a sheepdog trial in Hotchkiss CO, it started with an older lady sitting behind us in some bleachers. I heard her say her back was hurting and she needed to walk around, heard her scoot behind me at the end of the bleachers and say "OH MY! I don't think I can get down from here", so I stood up and offered her my arm (with a big USMC Devil Dog in the middle of it), As she got down she patted the tattoo and said "Thank you for your service....And thank you for carrying your gun. We need more good men like you to start carrying their guns too" After that 4 more people at the trial thanked me for carrying, including the guy at the Limonaide stand that wouldn't take my money for 2 drinks.

Then we went to an arts & craft show downtown GJ, the head of the private security company thanked me for carrying and assured me all his people knew OC was legal and to report anyone that hassled me as we went in. A young big busted gal in a light weight tie dye dress thanked me and said she usually conceal carrys but her dress didn't conceal much (and she was right ;-) ), a older cop (probably a field training officer) used me as a training opportunity for the young cop with him and said he preferred OC because 3 or 4 OCers were a better deterrence to criminals than a dozen CCers.

Even had an off duty sheriff's deputy detaining 4 Hispanics at a convenience store (the tension could be felt) ask me for back up until responding units arrived, in CO it is actually a class B petty crime to refuse an officers request for assistance. After his back up arrived I went on in the store and got my drink, when I came out every cop there thanked me and shook my hand and said they hoped I was around if they ever were in a tight spot.

JoeSparky said:

Kadmos,

To amplify the slogan---- IF one cannot lawfully exercise a right, they don't have the right! This is the context of the slogan. MANY have had legal challenges over the years in the exercise of a Right and the Courts (gradually) have begun to recognize these rights and are holding those who would violate these right to account!

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I agree with you there. But cannot is different than have to. Just because you aren't using the right currently, doesn't mean you've lost it in the future. The "slogan" as it was, simply isn't accurate

Wstar425 said:

First, welcome to the board. I think you will find that if you are civil and have legitimate questions, most if not all here, can respond in kind. I need some clarification. Are you asking why open carry instead of concealed, or are you asking why open carry instead of not carrying at all?

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Thanks for the welcome. Actually, when I started this I was asking "Why open carry at all?" I didn't mean it so much as how it related or didn't to concealed carry, but just why.

I guess I should be a bit more clear why I came here. Youtube recommended a video to me which showed a fairly negative reaction from law enforcement to this particular citizens open carry adventure. Because I watched it, they recommended several more. Pretty much all in that same vein. You probably know the type, someone either in a good sized city or suburbia, pretty much 100% white males (I've got nothing against white males, just saying what is), walking around an area where it's obviously not usual.

They seem like they want attention, and then they get attention. Then they play the game of pretending it's not unusual, refusing to show id, repeating "am I being detained?" And I'm thinking "a cop just pulled a gun on you, took away your gun...yeah, it's a safe bet that you are in fact being detained".

Frankly, I got annoyed. I made a couple comments on youtube, but lets be honest the odds of having an intelligent discussion with knowledgeable people on youtube is about good as teaching a panda to play the violin.

I hadn't given open carry much thought in a few years, and it made sense to go to the source, so to speak, and discuss my concerns, get opinions etc.

I enjoy good conversation, figured others might enjoy someone who is pro 2a but flat out says "Yeah, I'm not liking this" dropping by. Sure, I could read old posts, or whatnot, but figured why not just dive right in? Who knows where it will lead. Hopefully at the least a decent intellectual exercise. And so far you guys do not disappoint. I've already heard some excellent points and it's made me reassess some ideas.

Wstar said:

About the videos, some are certainly looking for a confrontation. Some are documenting a confrontation. It's pretty limited to Texas at the moment, as they did not have OC of handguns.

I've OCed every day for over 4 years. I don't think it is rude, nor disruptive. I've carried into Walmart, McD, all kinds of retail stores, my bank a couple of times every week, auto dealers, even bought a 2014 Tundra while open carry. I'm about 1000 to 4, good responses to bad, from people. I see quite a few things that at think are rude or disruptive, yet I rarely make a big deal out of it. If no one ever did anything that might possibly offend someone else, nothing would ever happen and you couldn't leave your home. People need to toughen up a little, and get over themselves. iMO
I've never caused a disruption, even the four bad situations. The other person was causing the disruption.

I open carry for a little bit of a lot of reasons.

I do not believe I should have to pay for the privilege to exercise a Right. You seem to not be convinced completely that it is a Right. At the moment, the Supreme Court disagrees with you. I disagree with some of their decisions lately as well.

I'm a tucked in shirt guy. If it's hot I don't want to wear another piece of clothing like a sweatshirt. I do conceal in the winter when I wear a jacket. I conceal in church every Sunday.

Open carry is the easiest, fastest, simplest, most efficient means of accessing my weapon, should I need it.

I believe I am responsible for my own safety.

Concealed carry is an offensive move, open carry is a defensive move.
M
The main reason I don't conceal, I believe open carry is a deterrent factor. It appears to me that most pro conceal/adamant anti open carry people do not view themselves as a possible victim. They seem to think that their heightened sense of situational awareness would never allow them to be a victim. That they would be the one to come to the aid of someone else who is a victim, using the tactical advantage of concealed carry. That is an offensive move. But, if you put concealed carry in the role of the victim, what happens to your tactical advantage? It's possibly a detriment.

I'm responsible for my own safety, and that of my family, or party I'm with. My first intention is to get to safety, and get my family to safety. That probably looks like some kind of an armed retreat to cover. I have no preconceived notion of being a hero, a sheepdog, or such. You are responsible for your own safety. If you want to rely on the police to keep you safe, be my guest. I will not stop you. Once I am safe, and my family is safe, I may or may not go to the aid of someone else who is a victim. To many possible scenarios to detail. My open carry allows the good people to quickly assess me as a threat. Hopefully not. My open carry allows the not so good people to also assess me as a candidate for a possible victim. Hopefully not. I'm thinking most will decide to persue someone else instead, maybe a concealed carrier who looks unarmed, then he can use that tactical advantage!!

Granted, if I stumble into the middle of a multi million dollar robbery where they would shoot a security guard or a policeman, I'm probably in trouble. So is everyone else.

It's a fluid thought process, constantly changing and adapting.

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Several good points, thank you. Sorry I'm only going to hit on the one right now, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed trying to catch up.

Has the supreme court said open carry is a right? My understanding is that they have not. They have said private gun ownership is a right. To be honest I haven't kept too up to date recently, but if you are referring to Heller, then I'm pretty sure they did specifically say the right to be able to purchase one and have it in your home for self protection.

Skidmark said:

So if I'm reading your posts right, you are not a supporter of "the implement that shall not be mentioned" and have only a 'little" heartburn over the OC of a holstered handgun.

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To clarify I support owning "the implement that shall not be mentioned", not so much the walking around suburbia with it...or mabey I should say very much not for the walking etc.

But yeah, only a little heartburn over OC of a holstered.

I'll try to quantify that to some degree, I first got here thinking it was a truly bad idea, but mostly annoyed by the other thing. I've now softened some on OC of holstered. Ok, maybe your personal area is rural, made CC fees really high. If you aren't scaring the locals, and people around those parts don't call the cops just because a man has a gun on his hip, then what do I care....do as you please. I don't faint at the sight of a gun in a holster, if the locals by you don't either, then have at it.

If it's no fuss then who cares? I get that.

Part of the reason my dad first bought guns was because he bought a little weekend hobby farm in a rural area to be able to decompress from a stressful job. I'll never forget he bought a Winchester 94 in a one horse town on the way out there one time (the first gun ever owned by my family). As we leave the gun store, my dad is walking down Main (and only) Street with the Winny tilted back against his shoulder, a man passed by and said "The bank is that way". Obviously just kind of playfully.... but even back then, and out there, and maybe 20 paces from a gun shop a passerby kind of noted it was unusual to see. Not that anyone was freaking out. It was just a noteworthy oddity. Kinda like a woman with bright purple hair might be a noteworthy oddity.

A city is different though. Again there is a bit of context issue. People aren't as laid back, it's not usual. And I get the argument that it's only unusual until it isn't...the more people who OC are seen out and about, the less people find it unusual. And that might work ok in a rural area, or even to an extant in suburbia, where your neighbors might know you as that guy who carries.

But even there you are starting to have too many people around. You would need massive numbers of people to OC before it would even remotely be not noteworthy. Your immediate neighbors might get used to it, but in a larger town/city there will be someone new driving by every couple seconds. Cops might end up fielding 20+ calls while you open carry for less than a mile of walking. Let me put it this way, my current zip code has 30,000 people and is just a hair over 3 square miles. There are simply too many people doing too many different things at a time for enough folks to get used to 3 or 4 people occasionally walking around OC'ing. Which around here would be 3 or 4 more people than I have even seen do it. It's just not seen in this area.

Don't get me wrong, these folks if they are in any large way anti-gun are totally hypocrites about it, because these folks certainly own guns. Step outside at midnight on New Years Eve and it sounds like the invasion of Baghdad! Those certainly aren't fireworks!

But a guy walking down the street with one, that you do not see here. If one is, then its a safe bet that the cops are already on the way.

I'm not so provincial as to think all places are like where I currently am of course. But my coming here to ask around this is in response to those type videos.

I remember several years back there were a ton of videos on youtube about fairly positive OC. At that time it was all pretty much holstered handguns, occasionally they would take one off the guy to check it, but mostly it was just a quick "we got some calls, and are just checking in" followed by some friendly conversation. Those seemed fine, really low key. Then it was the occasional kind of group event, some cops would be there maybe, usually just standing back a bit, overlooking it, possibly some friendly conversation. These last ones though, neither party seems laid back or friendly. I got to thinking "what is this stupidity.


Whew, I got a bit wordy there, I'll be back by later or tomorrow. I gotta start being a whole lot more brief. Thanks and sorry.

skidmark said:

A page and a half after I posed a series of questions the OP has replied/responded to comments by others, but it seems he can't be bothered to answer me.

Yes, my widdle fweelings are hurted and I'm feeling ignored, micro-aggressed, and maybe even triggered.

Well, I'll sit here in the corner, snuffling out what passes for my heart, waiting to see if the OP will answer me.

stay safe.

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Sorry, I saw I missed yours before. I hope I got to most of it in this last one, if not let me know, I promise to catch up at some point in the near future. I got better responses than I thought I might, plus more of them, plus I'm rambling a lot

Why open carry?

How about this. Give me a reason to NOT open carry that surpasses the reasons TO open carry.

Freedom of speech, religion, property, etc are not just "sometimes" freedoms, they are free no matter how you choose to exercise these rights, given that they do not infringe anothers' rights.

The human right to protect ourselves is no different. I get to choose how I do so. That's a human right, not a government sanctioned right.

So why NOT open carry if you so please?

Dang, sorry guys, I'm going to skip a bunch of reliplies, hit this one, and then come back around for the one's before, possibly tomorrow, and get caught up.

J_dazzle23 said:

Why open carry?

How about this. Give me a reason to NOT open carry that surpasses the reasons TO open carry.

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It freaks people out (particularly in some place). It might get you a gun pointed at your head, or worse. You might end up in prison, depending on where you are.

In many places I think it is essentially an invitation for trouble. In some places you might be safer being completely unarmed than open carrying.

J_dazzle23 said:

Freedom of speech, religion, property, etc are not just "sometimes" freedoms, they are free no matter how you choose to exercise these rights, given that they do not infringe anothers' rights.

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Actually, they are "sometimes" freedoms, the courts have found restrictions for each, usually many restrictions. Your freedom of speech does not allow you to threaten others, nor cause undue public panic (yelling fire in a crowded theater that isn't on fire). Your freedom of religion is abridged by things like no multiple spouses, no human sacrifice, etc. As to property, there are many types of property that either you can't own (Cocaine, Nukes), are heavily restricted (pharmaceuticals, explosives), or you can lose (eminent domain, property tax). Off the top of my head I can't think of a single Amendment at least in the bill of Rights that hasn't had some restrictions put on it.

J_dazzle23 said:

The human right to protect ourselves is no different. I get to choose how I do so. That's a human right, not a government sanctioned right.

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I disagree on that one too. Obviously in many, possibly most countries there is no right to bear arms. While you may have something of an innate human drive to protect yourself, you only have any sort of ability to be secure in that right if your local constabulary allows for it. You may be naturally inclined or able to fight "tooth and nail", but it means very little if the local police are going to harshly punish you for it.

Here is some food for thought for the OP, 2A purpose is the security of a free state. And how does hiding ones arms accomplish that? How did it work for Jews in Germany?

History is your friend.

Kadmos said:

Dang, sorry guys, I'm going to skip a bunch of reliplies, hit this one, and then come back around for the one's before, possibly tomorrow, and get caught up.



It freaks people out (particularly in some place). It might get you a gun pointed at your head, or worse. You might end up in prison, depending on where you are.

In many places I think it is essentially an invitation for trouble. In some places you might be safer being completely unarmed than open carrying.




Actually, they are "sometimes" freedoms, the courts have found restrictions for each, usually many restrictions. Your freedom of speech does not allow you to threaten others, nor cause undue public panic (yelling fire in a crowded theater that isn't on fire). Your freedom of religion is abridged by things like no multiple spouses, no human sacrifice, etc. As to property, there are many types of property that either you can't own (Cocaine, Nukes), are heavily restricted (pharmaceuticals, explosives), or you can lose (eminent domain, property tax). Off the top of my head I can't think of a single Amendment at least in the bill of Rights that hasn't had some restrictions put on it.



I disagree on that one too. Obviously in many, possibly most countries there is no right to bear arms. While you may have something of an innate human drive to protect yourself, you only have any sort of ability to be secure in that right if your local constabulary allows for it. You may be naturally inclined or able to fight "tooth and nail", but it means very little if the local police are going to harshly punish you for it.

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Like I said, our rights stop becoming rights when the infringe on others rights, which fit nearly every example you provided. It makes me wonder if you thoroughly read my post.

Secondly, we've all been here on this board a while, and have yet to hear of someone EVER being targeted for open carry. I believe there is an unofficial lump sum of money that had been unclaimed for as long as I can remember for the first member here to have it happen.

Thirdly, if you are ready for your "rights" to be determined by your local law enforcement, you might want to reexamine what you consider freedom.

Freedom is NOT the ability to do whatever general public is "comfortable" letting you do.

Asks us why, but doesn't want to know why. Already has all the answers even if he doesn't know the questions.

Who cares what SCOTUS has or hasn't said about OC. Those nine got their duty from the Constitution (article 3) within which the Bill of Rights describes our RKBA, which is based upon our natural and God-given right to self defense.

And frankly (no offense, or offense), who cares what the OP thinks of OC. I personally don't trust people who always hide their guns.