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Thread: Laser or no laser?

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    Laser or no laser?

    After doing some practicing at the local range today, my father caught the bug & started looking at pistols. A couple of them had the Crimson Trace Laser included, & I was wondering are lasers a good thing to have?

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    The biggest reason I have never purchased one is the hassle of finding a holster to fit your firearm once you equip it with a laser. I know there are plenty of people out there that will melt you a kydex holster to fit but I'm not into kydex myself. I like leather for both IWB and OWB but hey I'm old school. YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnrobitaille View Post
    [ ... ] I was wondering are lasers a good thing to have?
    Depends on the purpose of the pistol. For self-defense every day carry, I think not, for the expense, the complexity, the bad habits it encourages. For competition/gaming/ gadgetry ...
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    bedside table: laser/light combo. daytime : iron 3-dots.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Depends on the purpose of the pistol. For self-defense every day carry, I think not, for the expense, the complexity, the bad habits it encourages. For competition/gaming/ gadgetry ...
    +1

    Close quarters - heat of the moment - high stress = Point and shoot. Ain't got no time to concentrate on where some red dot is pointed.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Crimson Trace laser grips on my EDC 1911. Requires no special holster and is an excellent point n' shoot training aid.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Crimson Trace laser grips on my EDC 1911. Requires no special holster and is an excellent point n' shoot training aid.
    Correct, as a training aid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Correct, as a training aid.
    LOL EDC training aid.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    +1

    1. Close quarters
    2. - heat of the moment
    3. - high stress =
    4. Point and shoot. Ain't got no time to concentrate on where some red dot is pointed.

    1. situational awareness......but that won't always keep you from danger

    2. always seems that way

    3. adrenaline dump

    4. conversational distance, 'cause you usually don't shoot someone 'til after you have talked to them

    two parts to the last. (a) You are about to shoot a human, you better concentrate on what you are doing
    (b) If you use a laser in training, you will use it in real life. If it fails you when you need it, and you have trined to its use, you may/will be slower because you look for the dot, not the target.

    I use lasers on long guns, and I leave them off my EDC combat pistols. Simple is better.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    The primary firearms we were looking at, all had the rail-mounted lasers on them.

    Which laser is better, the rail-mounted or the lasergrip?

    For my Shield 9, I have not seen the lasergrip yet, only the rail-mounted.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    I bought a good "rail mount" laser for my EDC semi-auto. I use the laser exclusively for dry fire practice. It helps, but I did fine for a long time without it. I did mount it and take it to the range just to check it out... and it fell out of adjustment within a few rounds. Not much help in a live fire situation. Never shot a revolver equipped with a CT grip, but some of my students have had both semi-autos and revolvers with one in the last few years, and they had all acquired some bad habits that seem to be related.

    Need to train in as many different situations, with as many different kinds of equipment as possible... That's the only way you'll figure out what works for you.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    I bought a good "rail mount" laser for my EDC semi-auto. I use the laser exclusively for dry fire practice. It helps, but I did fine for a long time without it. I did mount it and take it to the range just to check it out... and it fell out of adjustment within a few rounds. Not much help in a live fire situation. Never shot a revolver equipped with a CT grip, but some of my students have had both semi-autos and revolvers with one in the last few years, and they had all acquired some bad habits that seem to be related.

    Need to train in as many different situations, with as many different kinds of equipment as possible... That's the only way you'll figure out what works for you.
    Oh, the heck with it! I'm gonna sell my guns. And, just carry horseshoes and hand grenades. Close counts with those.

    And the only training question will be on which side I carry the horseshoes, and which side the hand grenades--don't want to throw a grenade in a non-lethal encounter that calls only for a horseshoe.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, the heck with it! I'm gonna sell my guns. And, just carry horseshoes and hand grenades. Close counts with those.

    And the only training question will be on which side I carry the horseshoes, and which side the hand grenades--don't want to throw a grenade in a non-lethal encounter that calls only for a horseshoe.

    Horseshoes, eh? LOL I can just imagine having your belt hung with those things. If it works for you (just kidding), more power to you. I can't throw the darn things, let alone hit anything with them. I do pretty damned good with the 9mm slugs, however. And I can carry 16 +1 in the gun, and a spare magazine to boot. I've had some pretty hair raising dreams about needing 33 rounds.... but never expect to in real life. But then... you never know.

    The only man I ever had to shoot was trying to kill me with his bare hands. Only needed one round for that.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Crimson Trace laser grips on my EDC 1911. Requires no special holster and is an excellent point n' shoot training aid.
    and for real world grape...worthless as good olde muscle memory pure and simple works every time!!

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh, the heck with it! I'm gonna sell my guns. And, just carry horseshoes and hand grenades. Close counts with those.

    And the only training question will be on which side I carry the horseshoes, and which side the hand grenades--don't want to throw a grenade in a non-lethal encounter that calls only for a horseshoe.

    can i have first dibbbbbs, can i, huh can i....plleeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    can i have first dibbbbbs, can i, huh can i....plleeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz?

    ipse
    Ahhhh--HA! Trying to entrap me into violating some BATFE law about interstate transfer! No way, buster! They'll be sold at a gun show where dealers don't need background checks just so I can drive the antis nuts!

    Besides, you don't want them. High-mileage (high round-count), I've practiced a lot.

    Now, do something useful and tell me where I can buy .45 caliber horseshoes. Long Colt, ACP--I don't care. As long as their designation starts with the holy numeral "4".

    Last edited by Citizen; 07-19-2015 at 05:43 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Lasers have some usage, but in most scenarios they take AWAY from your training. Try both ways. You will be faster for the same hits without using the laser.

    A laser would have a tremendous advantage if it became necessary to take a shot from a position that couldn't get your face into aiming position.

    My 1911 came with LaserGrips. I took them off and saved them, but I carry everyday with much nicer wood grips.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  18. #18
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Ahhhh--HA! Trying to entrap me into violating some BATFE law about interstate transfer! No way, buster! They'll be sold at a gun show where dealers don't need background checks just so I can drive the antis nuts!

    Besides, you don't want them. High-mileage (high round-count), I've practiced a lot.

    Now, do something useful and tell me where I can buy .45 caliber horseshoes. Long Colt, ACP--I don't care. As long as their designation starts with the holy numeral "4".

    citizen if you will them to me no violations...and the name to put on your will is 'solus ipse'

    for horseshoes you might look at the sig 45 with extended mag...push comes to shove you could use it as a billy club when you run out of ammo...darn hefty piece of metal that on...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    citizen if you will them to me no violations...and the name to put on your will is 'solus ipse'

    For horseshoes you might look at the sig 45 with extended mag...push comes to shove you could use it as a billy club when you run out of ammo...darn hefty piece of metal that on...

    Ipse
    rofl!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
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    Ill add my limited lazzzzer experience. Always wanted one, finally got it. So fukin cool. Anyway, it made me a terrible shooter. I spent too much time trying to get right on dead center target instead of just drawing and trusting my instincts and aim.

    Holster situation is better than a few years ago but still difficult.


    My cat still enjoys the laser though so all is not lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post

    A laser would have a tremendous advantage if it became necessary to take a shot from a position that couldn't get your face into aiming position..
    And that's why I have CT on my carry gun
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    My fiancee' wanted me to learn while using a lazer, I told him no way. I want to learn under the worst, hardest, most extreme circumstances, because if I ever need to use my gun, I want to be able to use it under any circumstances. Just like using a telescope on our rifle, nope, told him "I'll keep missing until I can hit it"...and now I can Besides, I like the challenge, I like to see how good I can get on my own, old school. I was scared to death of guns until a few years back. Now. I don't know what I was thinking.

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  23. #23
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbrock69 View Post
    My fiancee' wanted me to learn while using a lazer, I told him no way. I want to learn under the worst, hardest, most extreme circumstances, because if I ever need to use my gun, I want to be able to use it under any circumstances. Just like using a telescope on our rifle, nope, told him "I'll keep missing until I can hit it"...and now I can Besides, I like the challenge, I like to see how good I can get on my own, old school. I was scared to death of guns until a few years back. Now. I don't know what I was thinking.

    So glad you have joined the people of the gun! I do hope you will reconsider at least some training aids, however. Learning how to function under stressful and less than ideal circumstances is truly important, but a lot depends on what you are shooting at... and why. If you need to hit something several hundred yards away, a scope is almost priceless. But if you never used a scope, never practiced with it, you would not be able to make that shot effectively.

    Most of us don't get as much range time as we'd like, and dry fire is an essential part of handgun practice anyway, so I've found the laser to be a great way to verify my aim in practice. I don't use it all the time, and I don't use it for live fire, so I don't build bad habits with it or count on it for my aim.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    So glad you have joined the people of the gun! I do hope you will reconsider at least some training aids, however. Learning how to function under stressful and less than ideal circumstances is truly important, but a lot depends on what you are shooting at... and why. If you need to hit something several hundred yards away, a scope is almost priceless. But if you never used a scope, never practiced with it, you would not be able to make that shot effectively.

    Most of us don't get as much range time as we'd like, and dry fire is an essential part of handgun practice anyway, so I've found the laser to be a great way to verify my aim in practice. I don't use it all the time, and I don't use it for live fire, so I don't build bad habits with it or count on it for my aim.
    I never considered that! That's a great idea! I am very interested in eventually, once I'm good enough, in joining a woman's group. My daughter is joining ROTC, and is also interested in joining a youth group. That sounds like a great way for both of us to practice, as you know, it's very expensive for both range time and ammo.

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbrock69 View Post
    as you know, it's very expensive for both range time and ammo.
    Range time doesn't have to be expensive.There is no rational reason to fire that much ammunition, unless you just want to.

    I do dry fire at least twice a week. I keep a journal of what I am working on and dry fire results. When I go to the range (at least weekly), I usually fire only a dozen or so rounds, very deliberately and ONLY to verify my dry fire practice. If I discover that I'm not getting the effectiveness I expected after a few rounds, I quit shooting and work on something else or do more dry fire.

    Learning a skill involves repetitions of perfect or near perfect technique. If you fire off a box full of ammo without good technique... or without knowing one from another... what's the point? If you practice bad habits with those hundreds of rounds fired, it's even worse. A net loss.

    Spend quality time in dry fire and other drills. Spend as few rounds as necessary to verify the effectiveness of that practice. If you just want to plink... buy an air rifle/gun and shoot pellets. Lots of fun. Good practice too, if you concentrate on your technique.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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