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OC Restaurant Confusion

nobama

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The deal is, OCing into a restaurant that serves alcohol is not legal unless you have permission or have a CHP. I would suggest getting one. It will be handy for travel into other states, but do still OC, we need more people OCing everywhere. I understand its a little intimidating at first, but that will pass the more you do it. Please read up on some of the OC reports and you will see, and please dont listen to any CC only zealots, they spew lies and falsehoods and most have never OCied before. And welcome to the forum.
 

solus

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here nc
glad i got a big bag of raisinets...

this nag is about to be beat to death yet AGAIN on the forum...sigh

ipse
 
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XD40sc

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Mar 31, 2013
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NC
The deal is, OCing into a restaurant that serves alcohol is not legal unless you have permission or have a CHP. I would suggest getting one. It will be handy for travel into other states, but do still OC, we need more people OCing everywhere. I understand its a little intimidating at first, but that will pass the more you do it. Please read up on some of the OC reports and you will see, and please dont listen to any CC only zealots, they spew lies and falsehoods and most have never OCied before. And welcome to the forum.

I live less than an hours drive from 3 neighboring states that have no OC (SC), or permit required OC (TN & GA). Why would I not carry my gun when I travel to these states?
 
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gary737

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Troutman, NC
I don't read 14-269.3 (3) as allowing just any carry in a restaurant without a permit with the permission of the owner. 14-269.3 covers two separate situations. The first situation is "any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission" and the second situation is "any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed." You are eating dinner in Olive Garden. What "event" are you a participate in? Is going to a movie and stopping for dinner at Olive Garden on the way home "an event" and is the manager on duty the "person or organization sponsoring the event" since they are not the owner or lessee? It would seem that "participating in the event" means "an assembly where a fee has been charged for admission" - and then are spectators/audience considered as "participating in the event"?

To me it would seem like (3) would apply, for example, at a rodeo where an admission fee is charged and a participant in the rodeo wanted to carry. A person in the audience watching the rodeo would be pretty grey - are they "participating" in the event? Eating dinner at Applebees would be much more toward the black side because is that considered any event at all?

Also notice that (3) says "A person participating in THE event" - not just any old event will suffice - it has to be THE event which would seem to indicate that it applies on to THE "assembly where a fee has been charged for admission" and not to THE Olive Garden where you happen to be eating dinner that night.

I agree with you.

I had the same discussion with WalkingWolf a long while ago when I pointed out the wording where I could open carry in a restaurant serving alcohol, if I had a CHP. To which WalkingWolf said I was wrong and that the writers of the statutes meant that I had to concealed carry, BUT he could open carry if he was taking part in the event, with that "event" being eating. Also he states that if he has the owners permission he can open carry. I disagree, just because he has the owners permission, doesn't allow him or the owner to disregard the laws.

Don't waste your time.
 
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carolina guy

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I don't read 14-269.3 (3) as allowing just any carry in a restaurant without a permit with the permission of the owner. 14-269.3 covers two separate situations. The first situation is "any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission" and the second situation is "any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed." You are eating dinner in Olive Garden. What "event" are you a participate in? Is going to a movie and stopping for dinner at Olive Garden on the way home "an event" and is the manager on duty the "person or organization sponsoring the event" since they are not the owner or lessee? It would seem that "participating in the event" means "an assembly where a fee has been charged for admission" - and then are spectators/audience considered as "participating in the event"?

To me it would seem like (3) would apply, for example, at a rodeo where an admission fee is charged and a participant in the rodeo wanted to carry. A person in the audience watching the rodeo would be pretty grey - are they "participating" in the event? Eating dinner at Applebees would be much more toward the black side because is that considered any event at all?

Also notice that (3) says "A person participating in THE event" - not just any old event will suffice - it has to be THE event which would seem to indicate that it applies on to THE "assembly where a fee has been charged for admission" and not to THE Olive Garden where you happen to be eating dinner that night.

§ 14-269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:(1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14-269.(2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment.(3) A person participating in the event, if the person is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event.(4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event.(5) A person carrying a handgun if the person has a valid concealed handgun permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter, has a concealed handgun permit considered valid under G.S. 14-415.24, or is exempt from obtaining a permit pursuant to G.S. 14-415.25. This subdivision shall not be construed to permit a person to carry a handgun on any premises where the person in legal possession or control of the premises has posted a conspicuous notice prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun on the premises in accordance with G.S. 14-415.11(c). (1977, c. 1016, s. 1; 1981, c. 412, s. 4; c. 747, s. 66; 1993, c. 539, s. 165; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2013-369, s. 3.)

(just in case the formatting gets womky, here is the direct link to the statute...)
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-269.3.html

Hmm...the way that I read it, the "event" is an open ended description referring back to the "assembly" or "establishment" in the title...and it gets itself further confused by the wording in (3) and (5) by then referring to "premises". After all, is it not possible for Olive Garden to charge (or not charge) a cover if they decided to host a local band? That would be an event...

Also, if a group, say an OC group wanted to meet at an establishment that happened to serve alcohol...would that not be an event for the OC group? How about a few friends gathering? Or two people? Or a person and his meal? :) At what point does a gathering become not a gathering or an event not become an event? Not sure, since it is not specified in the statute, but does seem to be covered in normal conversational English and daily practice (sounds a bit like common law...)

Anyway...guess it all gets down to HOW a reasonable person thinks, feels and acts, eh?
 
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carolina guy

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Not really. There may be a lot of unreasonable people involved in the process. For example, here in Washington: we have a preemption statute that only allows municipalities to ban firearms in city owned and operated convention centers and stadiums. There is no law against unlicensed open carry. In the preemption statute it states that persons who possess Concealed Pistol Licenses are exempt from firearms bans that a municipality may enact at their convention centers and stadiums. Seems to be a lot more black and white than the North Carolina statute we are talking about. Yet due to the unreasonable people involved all the way from the original complainer to the judge we have a member of our group in WA who possess a CPL with a conviction for violating a firearms ban because he was openly carrying, which there is no law against, and using his CPL as his exemption from a firearms ban at a convention center. That's like getting convicted for riding a bicycle because you have a driver's license. In addition, as a condition of probation the judge has completely banned him from open carrying anywhere, but he can carry concealed with his CPL which was never revoked.

In addition, to me, it's just not that big of a stretch of reasonableness for a person to think the exception in (3) for "a person participating in the event" would not apply to simply eating dinner in a restaurant - so, me personally, I would not count on that exception to be keeping me legal to open carry, without a license, while eating dinner in a restaurant that serves alcohol. And I am not normally known for catering to ideas or statements like "well, I wouldn't do that because a cop might hassle you for it."

Granted, it is quite true that NC law differs from WA law...and it *might* be nice (and it might not) if the legislature would clarify their intent.

However, if you would not count on one exemption to a law, then why would you count on any other exemption? If someone is determined to be unreasonable, no amount of exemptions are going to matter.

Since they did not define the words used, it falls on dictionary definitions.

And based on personal experience, most LEOs in NC are not going to be this nit-picky...

"LEO: you say that you have the owner's permission?"

<LEO looks to owner who nods 'yes'>

"Ok...have a good one! <walks away>"
 

WalkingWolf

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Granted, it is quite true that NC law differs from WA law...and it *might* be nice (and it might not) if the legislature would clarify their intent.

However, if you would not count on one exemption to a law, then why would you count on any other exemption? If someone is determined to be unreasonable, no amount of exemptions are going to matter.

Since they did not define the words used, it falls on dictionary definitions.

And based on personal experience, most LEOs in NC are not going to be this nit-picky...

"LEO: you say that you have the owner's permission?"

<LEO looks to owner who nods 'yes'>

"Ok...have a good one! <walks away>"

Speaking from experience, most LEOs want to be left alone while they are eating. Soooo it is unlikely they will make a stink, unless they have been called there, and in NC it is unlikely. Unless you are in Cross Creek Mall in Fayetteville.

I got dirty looks from someone who looked like a LEO in a Sanford Mexican restaurant, when we got done and left it turned out that the officer was some out of state yankee LEO. Most officers don't even know the law when it comes to carrying, just that OC is legal in NC. And if they do know they are not going to waste time with a iffy arrest that will bite them in the arse.

On top of that unless they are there on official business if they stir up doo doo, the owner can legally trespass them.
 

carolina guy

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Simple. (3) "A person participating in the event...." I would not rely upon that exemption because I would have to convince a cop, prosecutor, judge and/or jury that I was "A person participating in the event" when not even I believe that I would be. Additionally, I would not consider it unreasonable for a person to say that someone eating dinner in a restaurant was not "A person participating in the event" especially if there was no event other than eating dinner happening at the time.

(5) "A person carrying a handgun if the person has a valid concealed handgun permit...." FACT 1: I was carrying a handgun. FACT 2: Here's my valid concealed handgun permit. Pretty black and white facts to show compliance with. Only unreasonable people would say those facts don't apply as an exemption (which is what happened in WA) and I won't let what unreasonable people might think affect how I conduct my day to day life - even though there is a small chance that the right chain of unreasonable people may in fact convict me for violating a law that I was exempt from.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you get on the "wrong side" of the LEO, you are going to have to explain to someone, something.

Since we live in a country where the simple text of the 2A is so widely interpreted/misunderstood, it might be better if one never leaves the house at all. Barring that, one has to make up one's own mind about the appropriateness of the activities one engages in, and deal with the consequences of those choices. (ie. to each their own)

For me, it is not an issue generally with 4 small (and sometimes unruly) children....so I don't get to go anywhere interesting anyway. :lol:
 

BBGun

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Jul 19, 2015
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Raleigh
To your early comment on finding a 2A friendly restaurant. Cracker Barrel is OC friendly.

Looks like my honest question stirred up a hornets' nest. And it looks like the law is just as crazy as it sounds. Glad to hear someone agreed with me about Cracker Barrel; I was unsure.
 

hedwarr

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Aug 7, 2015
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north carolina
New to NC

Moved to Johnston County about 5 weeks ago..Been Carrying openly for a couple days now..no issues..just a few stares.
 

Grapeshot

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Grapeshot

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some more reading room material for your reading enjoyment from the NC AG...

http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

ipse
I notice that Teflon Bullets (page 33) are still restricted, even though there are no truly Teflon coated bullets - see Nyclad, a nylon coating.

No enhanced armor piercing - only real benefit was to reduce barrel wear. Definitely not "cop killers." Still some Black Talons to be found occasionally.
 

WalkingWolf

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I notice that Teflon Bullets (page 33) are still restricted, even though there are no truly Teflon coated bullets - see Nyclad, a nylon coating.

No enhanced armor piercing - only real benefit was to reduce barrel wear. Definitely not "cop killers." Still some Black Talons to be found occasionally.

I use poly coated bullets, it has become common among reloaders. The purpose is not to penetrate vests, that can be done with any conventional spire point at magnum velocities. The purpose is to prevent leading, and reduce lead emissions in indoor ranges.

The penetrator ammo(get your mind out of the gutter) is still legal and has no coating, and will easily penetrate a vest. I was able to consistantly defeat 80's era second chance vests with just old hard cast spire points out of a 38 super.
 
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