• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

5th or 4th Amendment rights question

that_girl

Newbie
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
9
Location
Florida
So should they not go after speeders that live out of state? It's a catch all crime after all. And if a warrant is issued because they failed to appear they can then be locked up on said warrant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with regards to "speeding", for the most part it is a ticket, which can be paid through the mail. There is no need for a Public Defender, discovery, prosecution, judge and Jury. Under normal circumstances, you would not be handcuffed, your property taken from you, and hauled off to jail, forced to pay bail, and then have to return 2,3 maybe even 4 more times to get it all solved.

Now, if they are speeding, and they are drinking, and/or driving under a suspension, by all means, that is a crime. But, as far as I know Walking While White after midnight is not.

You tell me, you obviously are an advocate for the right to bear arms, correct?
If you are, how would you feel about having your gun taken away from you because you did something you were supposed to do, so not to break a law. Now, try to imagine for a minute that you are at a work party, and your car breaks down, and say you have to walk 2-3 miles through a pretty bad area late at night after bar close, in order to get home. Now, imagine that while you were at that work party, you had two maybe 3 drinks in the span of 4 to 5 hours, and your judgment was clear enough that you knew you would be okay to drive, had your car not broken down, and you also were of sound mind enough to know that you had to lock your car, call a tow truck in the morning, and walk safely to your destination. Now, would you get your gun out and carry it with you? Or, would you leave it in the car and walk those miles without your legal protection?

You must be missing the part where she was doing nothing other than walking and talking on the phone with a friend while she was upset, she wasn't legally drunk in comparison to driving while intoxicated. But, unfortunately, there is no standard to compare against, because the charge she was charged with, in my opinion, is a catch all charge, which even the officer's own Sgt. said " is there to basically get people off of the street".

You know,had she been in a car and driving, and had her gun closed in the glove-box, and the officer not known, he would have had to let her drive home. So, obviously, if he and the law makers thought that she could be trusted enough, to handle a 2 ton vehicle on the roads, late at night in the dark, after blowing a .06, then surely she was safe enough to be walking with her gun, secured inside of a zipped closed purse, with her legal CCW.

It's always so easy to play devil's advocate if it's not you in such a situation, but try to imagine you in the same situation, how would you feel? Like, perhaps that your rights were violated, and that maybe your $600.00 ,new 38- special, snub nose, Smith & Wesson, revolver, was stolen from you, and that possibly, by trying to be a lawful citizen, you were treated like a POS criminal and thrown jail? I think you just might!

Even trying to compare a speeding ticket to a charge like "using a weapon while intoxicated" is like comparing apples and oranges...it' just doesn't fly!
 
Last edited:

JediSkipdogg

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Messages
139
Location
Batavia
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with regards to "speeding", for the most part it is a ticket, which can be paid through the mail. There is no need for a Public Defender, discovery, prosecution, judge and Jury. Under normal circumstances, you would not be handcuffed, your property taken from you, and hauled off to jail, forced to pay bail, and then have to return 2,3 maybe even 4 more times to get it all solved.

Now, if they are speeding, and they are drinking, and/or driving under a suspension, by all means, that is a crime. But, as far as I know Walking While White after midnight is not.

You tell me, you obviously are an advocate for the right to bear arms, correct?
If you are, how would you feel about having your gun taken away from you because you did something you were supposed to do, so not to break a law. Now, try to imagine for a minute that you are at a work party, and your car breaks down, and say you have to walk 2-3 miles through a pretty bad area late at night after bar close, in order to get home. Now, imagine that while you were at that work party, you had two maybe 3 drinks in the span of 4 to 5 hours, and your judgment was clear enough that you knew you would be okay to drive, had your car not broken down, and you also were of sound mind enough to know that you had to lock your car, call a tow truck in the morning, and walk safely to your destination. Now, would you get your gun out and carry it with you? Or, would you leave it in the car and walk those miles without your legal protection?

You must be missing the part where she was doing nothing other than walking and talking on the phone with a friend while she was upset, she wasn't legally drunk in comparison to driving while intoxicated. But, unfortunately, there is no standard to compare against, because the charge she was charged with, in my opinion, is a catch all charge, which even the officer's own Sgt. said " is there to basically get people off of the street".

You know,had she been in a car and driving, and had her gun closed in the glove-box, and the officer not known, he would have had to let her drive home. So, obviously, if he and the law makers thought that she could be trusted enough, to handle a 2 ton vehicle on the roads, late at night in the dark, after blowing a .06, then surely she was safe enough to be walking with her gun, secured inside of a zipped closed purse, with her legal CCW.

It's always so easy to play devil's advocate if it's not you in such a situation, but try to imagine you in the same situation, how would you feel? Like, perhaps that your rights were violated, and that maybe your $600.00 ,new 38- special, snub nose, Smith & Wesson, revolver, was stolen from you, and that possibly, by trying to be a lawful citizen, you were treated like a POS criminal and thrown jail? I think you just might!

Even trying to compare a speeding ticket to a charge like "using a weapon while intoxicated" is like comparing apples and oranges...it' just doesn't fly!

Keep in mind, a loaded gun in a car while a .06 would most likely still result in arrest for Operating a Vehicle while Intoxicated. There's something a lot on different forums suggest, if you plan on drinking and carrying, just remember that there MAY be consequences of it. This is unfortunately one of them.

I will agree the notification is bad and a violation of the 5th Amendment, but until someone with about a quarter million pursues it up to the Supreme Court of Ohio, it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
 

that_girl

Newbie
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
9
Location
Florida
Keep in mind, a loaded gun in a car while a .06 would most likely still result in arrest for Operating a Vehicle while Intoxicated. There's something a lot on different forums suggest, if you plan on drinking and carrying, just remember that there MAY be consequences of it. This is unfortunately one of them.

I will agree the notification is bad and a violation of the 5th Amendment, but until someone with about a quarter million pursues it up to the Supreme Court of Ohio, it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

You are unfortunately right, it's a shame so many times it takes money to make a change :(
I believe she did learn a lesson regarding alcohol and anything to do with a gun, but what a shame it has to be such a civil rights violation, rather than a lesson in discipline for her to have learned it.

I really do appreciate all of the insight everyone has offered, and I plan on spending a lot of time on these forums learning ALL of the rights we do or do not have!
 

Werz

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
301
Location
Northeast Ohio
She may be federally disqualified from even owning a firearm if she had a DV plead to a DC on her record.
When she got her CCW, she had to get proof from Ohio and the NCIS, saying that she was only guilty of disorderly and that the domestic wasn't a concern, it took her months. Also it was in 2001, and her sister and she had long since made up. No one was hurt, other than feelings of course, and it was a highly emotional time, as it was regarding their mother's health and care,so, both of their emotions were out of control, and they quickly made up, as siblings do.

So, she already went through all of that fun Not, to mention, at least in Florida there is a clause of some sort that allows certain people to get their CCW after a certain amount of time, and if their voting rights are restored.

posted from
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...tute&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

Has not had adjudication of guilt withheld or imposition of sentence suspended on any felony or misdemeanor crime of domestic violence unless 3 years have elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled, or the record has been sealed or expunged;

(l) Has not been issued an injunction that is currently in force and effect and that restrains the applicant from committing acts of domestic violence or acts of repeat violence; and
(m) Is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm by any other provision of Florida or federal law.
That was likely before the decision of the United States Supreme Court in United States v. Castleman. That decision might affect things, particularly if the court knows about the prior conviction.
 

kbrock69

New member
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
10
Location
Lehigh Acres, Florida
That was likely before the decision of the United States Supreme Court in United States v. Castleman. That decision might affect things, particularly if the court knows about the prior conviction.
It was after that, it was in 2014. And, also she never plead to anything to do with the domestic charge, the court, itself, lowered the charge to disorderly conduct, and that was the only charge she plead to, which is why she was issued the CCW. She had to get the actual court papers and original police department report and statement, and turn it all in to the NCIS, so that they could make a formal decision. In other words, she had to appeal the denial from Florida, and take it to the federal level to get her permit. It took some time, patiece, and energy on her part.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 

kbrock69

New member
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
10
Location
Lehigh Acres, Florida
If anyone is interested, I am attaching the information. regarding both cases, so that you can see them. Any and all opinions are appreciated :)

This case:

Docket Entry
07-27-2015PRE-TRIAL HEARING CONTINUED TO 08-10-2015 @ 9:00 AM
07-27-2015NOTICE FILED. THIS MATTER SCHEDULED FOR A HEARING ON MONDAY, AUGUST 10, 2015 AT 1:30 IS HEREBY RESCHEDULED FOR MONDAY, AUGUST 10, 2015 AT 9:00 AM.
07-01-2015PLAINTIFF'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR BILL OF PARTICULARS FILED.
07-01-2015PROSECUTOR'S ANSWER TO DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY FILED
06-29-2015DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR BILL OF PARTICULARS FILED BY ATTORNEY TONY WISE
06-29-2015DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY FILED BY ATTORNEY TONY WISE
06-29-2015JURY TRIAL SET FOR 08-19-2015 @ 8:30 AM
06-29-2015PRE-TRIAL HEARING CONTINUED TO 08-10-2015 @ 1:30 PM
06-29-2015JURY DEMAND FILED BY ATTORNEY TONY WISE
06-29-2015TIME WAIVER FILED.
06-23-2015COPY(IES) OF COMPLAINTS SERVED ON DEF. AND DEF. WAS ADVISED OF LEGAL RIGHTS IN OPEN COURT. DEFENDANT ENTERED A PLEA OF NOT GUILTY. JUDGE CURT WERREN ASSIGNED TO CASE. PRE-TRIAL HEARING SET FOR 06-29-2015 @ 9:00 AM
06-21-2015PROBABLE CAUSE FOUND THAT A CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED AND THAT THE DEFENDANT COMMITTED IT. WARRANT AFTER ARREST ISSUED AND SERVED IN OPEN COURT.
06-21-2015ARRAIGNMENT SET ON: 06/23/2015@ 9:00 A.M.
06-21-2015TRANSFERRED; STARK COUNTY JAIL IN LIEU OF BOND 06/20/2015
06-21-2015FORM 8 FILED
06-21-20151 COMPLAINT FILED.
06-21-2015CITATION DATE : 06/20/2015
06-21-2015DATE OF ARREST: 06/20/2015
06-21-20152923.15 (M1) - USING WEAPONS WHILE INTOXICATED COMPLAINT FILED
06-20-2015BOND POSTED - $2,000.00 TEN PERCENT POSTED

The Domestic Case from 2002:
COMPLAINT FILED. 2919.25A DOMEST VIOLENCE A M1 DEGREE OFFENS
03-04-2002ARREST WARRANT ISSUED. $25.00 ASSESSED TO JAK BY CERT. MAIL #7000 1530 0005 3511 0863.
03-04-2002AFFIDAVIT OF FACT FILED
03-04-2002PROBABLE CAUSE FOUND.
06-28-2002JUDGMENT ENTRY FILED. CASE TRANSFERRED TO FILE OF UNAVAILABILITY OF ACCUSED.
06-28-2002JUDGMENT ENTRY FILED. CASE TRANSFERRED TO FILE OF UNAVAILABILITY OF ACCUSED.
02-28-2003BOND POSTED - $5,000.00 TEN PERCENT POSTED BY NANCY JOINER IN MPD
02-28-2003DEFENDANT ARRESTED ON WARRANT - WARRANT RETURNED. DEFENDANT IN CUSTODY.
02-28-2003PRISONER INFORMATION SHEET FILED
02-28-2003ARRAIGNMENT SET FOR 03-06-2003 @ 8:45 AM
03-06-2003MOTION FOR TEMPORARY PROTECTION ORDER FILED.
03-06-2003ORDER TO APPREHEND DEFENDANT FILED.
03-06-2003POST CARD OF WARRANT NOTIFICATION SENT TO DEFENDANT.
03-06-2003BOND APPLIED TO CASE
03-06-2003BENCH WARRANT ISSUED FAILURE TO APPEAR FOR ARRAIGNMENT BY CERT. MAIL # 7002 0860 0005 2509 2314. 03-06-2003 (JACKSON POLICE DEPT)
03-11-2003BCI CARD FILED
03-23-2008DEFENDANT ARRESTED ON WARRANT - WARRANT RETURNED. DEFENDANT IN CUSTODY.
03-23-2008DEFENDANT ARRESTED ON 03-22-2008
03-23-2008PRISONER INFORMATION SHEET FILED
03-23-2008DEFENDANT ARRESTED AND BOOKED AT STARK COUNTY JAIL. COUNTY JAIL FEE ASSESSED.
03-23-2008BCI CARD FILED
03-23-2008ARRAIGNMENT SET FOR 03-24-2008 @ 8:45 AM
03-24-2008SENTENCING RECOMMENDATION FILED BY STATE OF OHIO.
JOURNAL ENTRY AND ORDER FILED.
03-24-2008AMENDED CHARGE COUNT NO 1 REDUCED TO 2917.11 (M4) -DISORDERLY CONDUCT
03-24-2008DEFENDANT ENTERED A PLEA OF NO CONTEST ON COUNT 1
03-24-2008THE COURT FINDS THE DEFENDANT GUILTY. - COUNT 1
03-24-2008IT IS THE SENTENCE OF THE COURT: COUNT #1 DISORDERLY CONDUCT 100.00 FINE AND COSTS 30 DAYS IN JAIL.
03-24-2008IT IS FURTHER ORDERED THAT ALL BUT 3 DAYS ARE SUSPENDED
03-24-2008DEFENDANT IS CREDITED WITH 3 DAYS SERVED.
03-24-2008FURTHER ON THE FOLLOWING ORDER(S): NO RELATED OFFENSES FOR 5 YEARS; SHALL MAINTAIN CURRENT ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND EMPLOYMENT WITH COURT FOR 5 YEARS; RELEASE ON THIS CHARGE; CHARGE AMENDED PER STATE'S RECOMMENDATION;
03-24-2008BY RECOMMENDATION OF MAGISTRATE JOEL FICHTER
03-24-2008DEFENDANT ORDERED RELEASED ON 03-24-2008, RELEASE SENT TO SCJ
03-24-2008PAID IN FULL
03-24-2008FAXED JAIL RELEASE TO STARK COUNTY JAIL ON 3-24-08 AT 12:31PM.
03-25-2008UPON COURT'S OWN MOTION THE REPORT OF THE MAGISTRATE IS CONFIRMED AND ORDERED ENTERED ON RECORD.


Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 

kbrock69

New member
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
10
Location
Lehigh Acres, Florida
If anyone is interested, I am attaching the information. regarding both cases, so that you can see them. Any and all opinions are appreciated :)

This case:

Docket Entry
07-27-2015PRE-TRIAL HEARING CONTINUED TO 08-10-2015 @ 9:00 AM
07-27-2015NOTICE FILED. THIS MATTER SCHEDULED FOR A HEARING ON MONDAY, AUGUST 10, 2015 AT 1:30 IS HEREBY RESCHEDULED FOR MONDAY, AUGUST 10, 2015 AT 9:00 AM.
07-01-2015PLAINTIFF'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR BILL OF PARTICULARS FILED.
07-01-2015PROSECUTOR'S ANSWER TO DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY FILED
06-29-2015DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR BILL OF PARTICULARS FILED BY ATTORNEY TONY WISE
06-29-2015DEFENDANT'S REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY FILED BY ATTORNEY TONY WISE
06-29-2015JURY TRIAL SET FOR 08-19-2015 @ 8:30 AM
06-29-2015PRE-TRIAL HEARING CONTINUED TO 08-10-2015 @ 1:30 PM
06-29-2015JURY DEMAND FILED BY ATTORNEY TONY WISE
06-29-2015TIME WAIVER FILED.
06-23-2015COPY(IES) OF COMPLAINTS SERVED ON DEF. AND DEF. WAS ADVISED OF LEGAL RIGHTS IN OPEN COURT. DEFENDANT ENTERED A PLEA OF NOT GUILTY. JUDGE CURT WERREN ASSIGNED TO CASE. PRE-TRIAL HEARING SET FOR 06-29-2015 @ 9:00 AM
06-21-2015PROBABLE CAUSE FOUND THAT A CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED AND THAT THE DEFENDANT COMMITTED IT. WARRANT AFTER ARREST ISSUED AND SERVED IN OPEN COURT.
06-21-2015ARRAIGNMENT SET ON: 06/23/2015@ 9:00 A.M.
06-21-2015TRANSFERRED; STARK COUNTY JAIL IN LIEU OF BOND 06/20/2015
06-21-2015FORM 8 FILED
06-21-20151 COMPLAINT FILED.
06-21-2015CITATION DATE : 06/20/2015
06-21-2015DATE OF ARREST: 06/20/2015
06-21-20152923.15 (M1) - USING WEAPONS WHILE INTOXICATED COMPLAINT FILED
06-20-2015BOND POSTED - $2,000.00 TEN PERCENT POSTED

The Domestic Case from 2002:
COMPLAINT FILED. 2919.25A DOMEST VIOLENCE A M1 DEGREE OFFENS
03-04-2002ARREST WARRANT ISSUED. $25.00 ASSESSED TO JAK BY CERT. MAIL #7000 1530 0005 3511 0863.
03-04-2002AFFIDAVIT OF FACT FILED
03-04-2002PROBABLE CAUSE FOUND.
06-28-2002JUDGMENT ENTRY FILED. CASE TRANSFERRED TO FILE OF UNAVAILABILITY OF ACCUSED.
06-28-2002JUDGMENT ENTRY FILED. CASE TRANSFERRED TO FILE OF UNAVAILABILITY OF ACCUSED.
02-28-2003BOND POSTED - $5,000.00 TEN PERCENT POSTED BY NANCY JOINER IN MPD
02-28-2003DEFENDANT ARRESTED ON WARRANT - WARRANT RETURNED. DEFENDANT IN CUSTODY.
02-28-2003PRISONER INFORMATION SHEET FILED
02-28-2003ARRAIGNMENT SET FOR 03-06-2003 @ 8:45 AM
03-06-2003MOTION FOR TEMPORARY PROTECTION ORDER FILED.
03-06-2003ORDER TO APPREHEND DEFENDANT FILED.
03-06-2003POST CARD OF WARRANT NOTIFICATION SENT TO DEFENDANT.
03-06-2003BOND APPLIED TO CASE
03-06-2003BENCH WARRANT ISSUED FAILURE TO APPEAR FOR ARRAIGNMENT BY CERT. MAIL # 7002 0860 0005 2509 2314. 03-06-2003 (JACKSON POLICE DEPT)
03-11-2003BCI CARD FILED
03-23-2008DEFENDANT ARRESTED ON WARRANT - WARRANT RETURNED. DEFENDANT IN CUSTODY.
03-23-2008DEFENDANT ARRESTED ON 03-22-2008
03-23-2008PRISONER INFORMATION SHEET FILED
03-23-2008DEFENDANT ARRESTED AND BOOKED AT STARK COUNTY JAIL. COUNTY JAIL FEE ASSESSED.
03-23-2008BCI CARD FILED
03-23-2008ARRAIGNMENT SET FOR 03-24-2008 @ 8:45 AM
03-24-2008SENTENCING RECOMMENDATION FILED BY STATE OF OHIO.
JOURNAL ENTRY AND ORDER FILED.
03-24-2008AMENDED CHARGE COUNT NO 1 REDUCED TO 2917.11 (M4) -DISORDERLY CONDUCT
03-24-2008DEFENDANT ENTERED A PLEA OF NO CONTEST ON COUNT 1
03-24-2008THE COURT FINDS THE DEFENDANT GUILTY. - COUNT 1
03-24-2008IT IS THE SENTENCE OF THE COURT: COUNT #1 DISORDERLY CONDUCT 100.00 FINE AND COSTS 30 DAYS IN JAIL.
03-24-2008IT IS FURTHER ORDERED THAT ALL BUT 3 DAYS ARE SUSPENDED
03-24-2008DEFENDANT IS CREDITED WITH 3 DAYS SERVED.
03-24-2008FURTHER ON THE FOLLOWING ORDER(S): NO RELATED OFFENSES FOR 5 YEARS; SHALL MAINTAIN CURRENT ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND EMPLOYMENT WITH COURT FOR 5 YEARS; RELEASE ON THIS CHARGE; CHARGE AMENDED PER STATE'S RECOMMENDATION;
03-24-2008BY RECOMMENDATION OF MAGISTRATE JOEL FICHTER
03-24-2008DEFENDANT ORDERED RELEASED ON 03-24-2008, RELEASE SENT TO SCJ
03-24-2008PAID IN FULL
03-24-2008FAXED JAIL RELEASE TO STARK COUNTY JAIL ON 3-24-08 AT 12:31PM.
03-25-2008UPON COURT'S OWN MOTION THE REPORT OF THE MAGISTRATE IS CONFIRMED AND ORDERED ENTERED ON RECORD.


Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

This part in particular, I believe is why she was allowed her permit.
"DEFENDANT IS CREDITED WITH 3 DAYS SERVED.
03-24-2008FURTHER ON THE FOLLOWING ORDER(S): NO RELATED OFFENSES FOR 5 YEARS; SHALL MAINTAIN CURRENT ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, AND EMPLOYMENT WITH COURT FOR 5 YEARS; RELEASE ON THIS CHARGE; CHARGE AMENDED PER STATE'S RECOMMENDATION;"

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
Top