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Thread: Police Training

  1. #1
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    Police Training

    Hi, Folks,

    I'm a police academy legal instructor, assigned to develop a much-needed and long overdue training package on open carry. I'm good with the legal aspects, but the challenge in police training is to integrate legal requirements into overall police procedure to include other considerations like officer safety and other tactical issues.

    So, I'd like to consider good ideas that other police trainers have come up with. Have any of you heard of agencies whose officers seem to be well trained on police interface with open carry situations and who give proper considerations to citizens' rights? Those are the kind of agencies I'd like to contact.

    Thanks.

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    how about, just because soemoen calls on an O.C. ing individual does not create a reason of PC or RAS, as a result there is no definite NEED to stop the individual, if engaging, BE POLITE, most legal O.C.ers will have camera's to document the encounter so there will not be any incorrect statements in the report that will be able to hold up in a court due to lack of evidence to the contrary, if this upsets your officers, then they should NOT be the ones responding.

    also learn the difference between detainment and consensual, most will ask if they are being detained, if the answer is no, then that ends the consensual interactions most times, if the officer wants to persue he will have to state he is detaining them, or just let them go. it is recommended to keep a casual tone with the person beign detained and stay pleasant, describe the purpose of the stop, and why they are having to "investigate" however with a lack of evidence of a crime they will be restricted to constitutional laws and restriction if the person applies their 4th and 5th amendmental rights, they need to be prepared for this, and not look at it as an obstruction of their job, as it isn't sicne they are rights, and your officers are bound by them, and there are legal ways around them.

    these people are very good at enforcing their rights, and dont' like them trampled on, so I guess the best thing is be respectful, be courteous, and of course there are some criminals out there, so be prepared by means of ballistic vests and sound judgement.

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    I was pleased with Charleston, SC, PD Chief Greg Mullens' response to the Emmanuel AME shooting. No armored police were evident in the early coverage.

    OC is illegal in SC, but for special purposes.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I was pleased with Charleston, SC, PD Chief Greg Mullens' response to the Emmanuel AME shooting. No armored police were evident in the early coverage.

    OC is illegal in SC, but for special purposes.
    OOps LOL I forgot some places don't allow OC legally. in which case then it would be a state locality illegal act. but again, so long as they are not acting in a threatening manner, don't come in guns blazing.

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    I recommend that this thread be moved to the VA sub-forum. Folks in VA have a wide and extensive range of knowledge, their insights regarding their respective LEAs policies/procedures will be most useful.

    As to a specific on-point response, I would determine the individual trainee's view of visibly armed citizens. A effective, and safe officer, will hold his views, one way or the other, to himself during a encounter. Professionalism goes a long way towards mitigating a uncomfortable outcome for all parties.

    MWAG calls start with the 911 operator and the exact words used to either assign a officer, or to educate the caller on local/state law. Cops usually are the last ones to learn the truth, but the first ones to find out that what they were told and what they see are different. Darned if you do-darned if you don't.

    Observing for a few will, in all likelihood, reveal more than instant contact.

    My little LEA has policies that, at time, conflict with state statute and the poor cop has to balance policy, their belief system, and state law...typically before they make contact. OCers are likely the last citizen a cop should view as a clear and present threat. YMMV

    Welcome to OCDO. Be safe.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Moved it to the Virginia sub-forum - state specific issue.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVCJA View Post
    Hi, Folks,

    I'm a police academy legal instructor, assigned to develop a much-needed and long overdue training package on open carry. I'm good with the legal aspects, but the challenge in police training is to integrate legal requirements into overall police procedure to include other considerations like officer safety and other tactical issues.

    So, I'd like to consider good ideas that other police trainers have come up with. Have any of you heard of agencies whose officers seem to be well trained on police interface with open carry situations and who give proper considerations to citizens' rights? Those are the kind of agencies I'd like to contact.

    Thanks.
    Welcome to OCDO. Thanks for considering that we might have some useful information about this topic.

    1 - "Officer safety" is and will continue to be that crap cops try to hide behind when they are imposing their personal beliefs/opinions on someone. As regards a person Open Carrying there should be no issue of "officer safety" if the cop follows the other training s/he received. Let's start with observing the scene instead of crashing in like a bull in a china shop. What is the person doing besides holding a holstered gun up off the ground by having it attached to their belt? Are they saying anything, and if so to whom are they saying it? What (specifically or generalized by volume and tone of voice + body language) are they saying? Have they taken the handgun out of its holster?

    2 - what, if any reason, does the officer have for doing anything about that holstered handgun except some paranoia that the person might pull it out and start shooting her/him or anybody else. (See #1 above for ways to determine if it is reasonable fear as opposed to paranoia.)

    3 - when responding to a MWAG call, will the officer first stop and observe, comparing the information provided (directly or through the dispatcher) against the actual behavior of the person Open Carrying?

    4 - I'll bet you teach officers how to position their vehicles when making a traffic stop so that the officer is best protected from oncoming traffic and anything the driver might do. Do you teach anything similar regarding the officer's approach to any person (Open Carrying or not)? Just for fun - what do you teach should be the officer's response/reaction if someone suddenly throws an infant at/towards them? Or is that aspect of "officer safety" not addressed at all?

    Your query does not imply, it boldly states that officers are going to make a presumption based on only one piece of information (that the person has a holstered firearm) that they pose a direct and immediate threat to the officer. Your asking what other agencies are teaching indicates that your agency does not teach anything but that the mere presence of a weapon is a direct threat to the officer.

    You are not to far from Richmond, so I'd like to invite you to one of our monthly OC dinners - second Tuesday of the month unless something weird is going on. Seeing as how it would be for training development purposes you probably could get the academy to pick up the tab for your trip here and the cost of the meal itself. Plus mileage if they don't let you take an agency vehicle. It's only about 2 hours away. You would get to see a dozen or so folks openly Open Carrying and see how the behavior is more predictive of trouble than the mere presence of a holstered handgun. Plus you would get street cred for having survived the encounter with so many armed people.

    stay safe.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Less this:


    Moar this


    And while you're here:
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 07-29-2015 at 06:18 PM.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVCJA View Post
    Hi, Folks,

    I'm a police academy legal instructor, assigned to develop a much-needed and long overdue training package on open carry. I'm good with the legal aspects, but the challenge in police training is to integrate legal requirements into overall police procedure to include other considerations like officer safety and other tactical issues.

    So, I'd like to consider good ideas that other police trainers have come up with. Have any of you heard of agencies whose officers seem to be well trained on police interface with open carry situations and who give proper considerations to citizens' rights? Those are the kind of agencies I'd like to contact.

    Thanks.
    Two that come to mind that are well trained.
    York county tops the list.
    By all appearance. Hanover is now but had a horrible track record under previous administrations.

  10. #10
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    Having been a DCJS LE instructor, and now teaching on the civilian side, I may be able to offer some info here. Heck, I could probably teach the course off the top of my head...lol.

    CVCJA - shoot me a pm here and let's make contact.
    James Reynolds

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    Not violating rights of law abiding citizens goes a long way for officer safety. Just sayin`
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVCJA View Post
    Hi, Folks,

    I'm a police academy legal instructor, assigned to develop a much-needed and long overdue training package on open carry. I'm good with the legal aspects, but the challenge in police training is to integrate legal requirements into overall police procedure to include other considerations like officer safety and other tactical issues.

    So, I'd like to consider good ideas that other police trainers have come up with. Have any of you heard of agencies whose officers seem to be well trained on police interface with open carry situations and who give proper considerations to citizens' rights? Those are the kind of agencies I'd like to contact.

    Thanks.

    I was a Instructor tactics and firearms use of force. at my department academy for decades a state agency. One could see a big different how officers from the rural areas handled firearm complaints compared to the big city people.

    The city folks wanted to gun up and treat every body as deadly threats even when there was no cause to. Your conservation officers/ Game wardens, rural officers handle armed citizens every hunting season with out trouble.

    The problem I see normally comes from the top down if the Department has an anti gun mayor, police chief, city council.

    They condone the mistreatment of gun owners and the 2nd amendment and the street officers follow their lead.

    Unless one has some reason to believe a open carrier is breaking the law there is no reason to contact him.

    Here's a good article on how safe open carriers are the author was an former LEO.

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/08...-checking.html

    The easiest way to handle open carriers is to follow the law. If they are not breaking the law leave them alone a lot of money has been paid out for not doing so.

    If they are breaking the law and are endangering others with their behavior act accordingly.

    When other officers asked me how do you tell a good guy with a gun from a bad guy with a gun the bad guys shoot at you or others the good guys don't

    Follow the law and the constitution and one well a lot less problems.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 07-29-2015 at 07:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVCJA View Post
    Hi, Folks,

    I'm a police academy legal instructor, assigned to develop a much-needed and long overdue training package on open carry. I'm good with the legal aspects, but the challenge in police training is to integrate legal requirements into overall police procedure to include other considerations like officer safety and other tactical issues.

    So, I'd like to consider good ideas that other police trainers have come up with. Have any of you heard of agencies whose officers seem to be well trained on police interface with open carry situations and who give proper considerations to citizens' rights? Those are the kind of agencies I'd like to contact.

    Thanks.
    1. Why would an open-carry "situation" be any different than any other situation? Lets do a fast review:
    a. observe from a distance; no RAS, no contact.
    b. consensual contact: open carry or no open carry--no reason to treat it any different than any other consensual contact.
    c. Terry Stop with RAS: Terry's two prongs kick in. Prong1: if its an OCer, he's armed. Prong2: presently dangerous. If both prongs are satisfied, the cop is already legally allowed to temporarily seize the OC'd weapon.

    So, why is there a question?



    2. Cops first need to learn to respect the limits of their authority. We've seen lots in the last eight years. So, we know all about cops giving orders and making demands in authoritative tone of voice while choosing words that seem a request. We know all about police demanding identity documents without authority to make the demand, including during both consensual encounters and detentions. We know all about cops making it up as they go along: stuff like seizing an OCer on the backwards RAS of "how do I know you're not a prohibited possessor?". Stuff like detaining someone on the basis of someone exercising an enumerated right, "we had a complaint about a man with a gun." (As if a person legally carrying a gun justified a detention.) We know darned good and well most of those cops didn't get up that morning and say to themselves, "for the first time in my career, I'm gonna violate somebody's Fourth Amendment rights today." They were doing it all along. OCers just flushed them out into the open, bringing them to the attention of a group who knew the law.

    So, if you're teaching a crowd who already plays fast and loose with the limits of their authority, there's not much point in teaching them about OC. They'll ignore it.; or you'll have to back up one step and teach them about that before teaching them about OC.


    3. Start with dispatchers and review of dispatch policy. If a caller whines "man with a gun", dispatch needs to ask what the MWAG is doing with the gun. Is it holstered? Is he shopping? Is he shopping? Etc. If nothing going on, dispatch can say, "That's legal, ma'am/sir. Call us back when he does something illegal." And, if there is a policy to dispatch to all complaints, officers can be trained to observe from a distance without contacting the OCer.


    4. Whatever you teach your students, look out for their interests. This next goes back to point #2. Over the years we've met quite a few cops who could screw up even a consensual encounter. We do file formal written complaints that trigger IA review. We do record contacts with police. We do file the occasional lawsuit. Its in your students' best interest not to contact an OCer without RAS, unless the student intends to scrupulously follow 4th Amendment case law. The tricks some cops pull that usually work on Joe Public won't work on most OCers. If your student is in the habit of pulling little abuses of authority, he's gonna want to leave those habits in the car before walking up to an OCer.


    5. Do you have any idea how revealing the implications of the bolded comment? Why would there be any agencies who didn't give proper consideration to citizens' rights? Separately, are they really so few in number, and unknown or undiscoverable within the LE grapevine, that you needed to ask us here?
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-29-2015 at 07:31 PM.
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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO. As has been said just because someone is OCing a handgun is not RAS for a Terry stop. Treating citizens with respect goes a long way to being treated with respect in return.

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    Last edited by Wolf_shadow; 07-29-2015 at 07:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    York county tops the list.
    Indeed.

    http://www.yorkcounty.gov/CountyGove...onSheriff.aspx

  16. #16
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO, CVCJA.

    Here's a tip.

    Others have remarked about the attitude of the York County Sheriff's Office toward OCing. The sheriff sets the tone, and his policy is that all citizens have the constitutionally protected right to keep and bear. (He also follows the law regarding prohibited persons.) He will not tolerate embarrassment due to his deputies' ignorance of gun laws.

    I live in Newport News, but spend quite a bit of time in York County. As I OC when the weather is good (I have a CHP so I can put on a coat in cold weather) I suspect that I've been the object of MWAG calls a time or two. (I say "suspect" because one time I overheard the responding deputy explaining to the complainant that OC was perfectly legal, and until some law is broken, there was nothing to be done.) Note that the deputy responded to the complainant, another customer, not to me. (I was in a supermarket at the time.) Responding to the complainant is a win-win for all concerned. The complainant expects a LEO response, the LEO is in no danger, s/he may get the opportunity to observe the OCer while talking to the complainant, and if all is well, the OCer is not approached. No need to for any sort of "Hey, Bud. A concerned citizen called in a complaint about your exposed firearm."

    In all fairness, a MWAG in York County is considered very normal by the general population. Someone without one is unusual.

    I would urge you to take Skidmark's advice and attend an OC dinner. We used to have them frequently around here before the (silly) prohibition on CCing in alcohol-serving restaurants was repealed. And in such establishments, of course. Sheriff Diggs and his wife were even our guests at two of them.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by 2a4all; 07-29-2015 at 11:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I was a Instructor tactics and firearms use of force. at my department academy for decades a state agency. One could see a big different how officers from the rural areas handled firearm complaints compared to the big city people.

    The city folks wanted to gun up and treat every body as deadly threats even when there was no cause to. Your conservation officers/ Game wardens, rural officers handle armed citizens every hunting season with out trouble.

    The problem I see normally comes from the top down if the Department has an anti gun mayor, police chief, city council.

    They condone the mistreatment of gun owners and the 2nd amendment and the street officers follow their lead.

    Unless one has some reason to believe a open carrier is breaking the law there is no reason to contact him.

    Here's a good article on how safe open carriers are the author was an former LEO.

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2014/08...-checking.html

    The easiest way to handle open carriers is to follow the law. If they are not breaking the law leave them alone a lot of money has been paid out for not doing so.

    If they are breaking the law and are endangering others with their behavior act accordingly.

    When other officers asked me how do you tell a good guy with a gun from a bad guy with a gun the bad guys shoot at you or others the good guys don't

    Follow the law and the constitution and one well a lot less problems.


    "The problem I see normally comes from the top down if the Department has an anti gun mayor, police chief, city council.

    They condone the mistreatment of gun owners and the 2nd amendment and the street officers follow their lead.


    As has been the example of Henrico County for the last few years. They receive no recommendation except as the "Do NOT do it this way" bad example.

    Welcome aboard CVCJA.
    Last edited by va_tazdad; 07-30-2015 at 12:35 AM. Reason: spelling

  18. #18
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Well CVCJA,

    You can see many responses here that should indicate to you the level of distrust and anger that many open carriers have.

    What many appear to respond to is the feel of your question - how does one handle the open carriers. The answer is simple. treat them like the law abiding citizens that they are.

    What really needs to change is the mind-set of many police departments. This mind-set seems to accept the minor hassling of gun owners because they are exercising their gun rights.

    If you OC long enough your police experience includes:

    ...You are detained because I don't know you and you have a gun.

    ...You have to provide ID because I want to make sure you are not a felon. etc., etc, etc.


    If you really want to understand how you should interact with a lawfully armed citizen take the time to understand our culture of self reliance and liberty. We don't resent your badge or your gun. What we resent is a police culture that intentionally perverts the limited authority given by the Commonwealth to police into a civil rights suppression event in the name of officer safety or even worse because I'm a cop and I say so.

    We are law abiding. Leave us alone and problems go away.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    If you OC long enough your police experience includes:
    Being lied to, by police officers.
    Being lied about, by police officers.

    ^ Change that.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    To the OP

    please let us know if you wish to take up skidmark's invitation to dinner, and I will be sure to find something else to do that evening
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  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    To the OP

    please let us know if you wish to take up skidmark's invitation to dinner, and I will be sure to find something else to do that evening
    That ^

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    The city folks wanted to gun up and treat every body as deadly threats even when there was no cause to.

    Your conservation officers/ Game wardens, rural officers handle armed citizens every hunting season with out trouble.

    The problem I see normally comes from the top down if the Department has an anti gun mayor, police chief, city council.

    They condone the mistreatment of gun owners and the 2nd amendment and some of the street officers follow their lead.
    .
    Welcome to OCDO, I hope you stay a while as a great deal of useful information can be had here. That said, a few have "attitudes" in dealing with LEOs of any variety so keep your flame suit handy.

    I live in a city that "Fought the law", but the law won. Three serious MWAG incidents drew the public into lawsuits. This is not the best way to learn. On the last incident, two Citizens were included when the entire training program was rewritten for both LEOs AND the 911 dispatcher. LEOs saw us all as criminals, not because we were, but because the city council and mayor pushed it on them. See above (Truth) comments by FI.
    I recommend getting copies of training bulletins from as many organizations as possible. We have most of Washington's on our sub-forum. Some read as tho we are bad guys and give info on "How to arrest" and some are more realistic on "How to interact with Legally Armed Citizens".
    Please include some of the People here in your research to get the best document and the best training possible for the People in your area. We are not your adversaries.

    Oh, yes. I added the underlined to your comment. I have had LEOs, in my town, tell me, repeatedly, that they supported us 100% but get harassment from above. That no longer happens
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 07-30-2015 at 07:57 PM. Reason: spelink
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  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    To the OP

    please let us know if you wish to take up skidmark's invitation to dinner, and I will be sure to find something else to do that evening

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That ^
    Really, you two. While you are some of the folks who have has extremely bad encounters with the cops because of OCing this "I'm going to hide in the closet" attitude seems uncalled for.

    You both have good reasons to dislike hate cops but this is an opportunity to let a real live cop trainer see that the mere presence of a holstered handgun is not a threat to officer safety or an indication that the mall/restaurant is going to be shot up. It's also an opportunity to provide some background on why you feel the way you do towards/about cops.

    Plus, I'll bring cootie repellant for you and cootie killer for CVCJA. (I'm sure he will understand.)

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    What is the police mindset that we are working with? For example:

    What is police procedure if a someone calls the PD saying that they saw a concealed firearm when a man's coat blew open in the breeze while he was pumping gas?

    Are efforts made to find the man and verify that he is legally armed, especially considering that a permit would be required for such concealment?

    Or is more effort expended to verify legality of an open carrier, who needs no permit, and is statistically far less likely to be up to no good?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  25. #25
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Really, you two. While you are some of the folks who have has extremely bad encounters with the cops because of OCing this "I'm going to hide in the closet" attitude seems uncalled for.

    You both have good reasons to dislike hate cops but this is an opportunity to let a real live cop trainer see that the mere presence of a holstered handgun is not a threat to officer safety or an indication that the mall/restaurant is going to be shot up. It's also an opportunity to provide some background on why you feel the way you do towards/about cops.

    Plus, I'll bring cootie repellant for you and cootie killer for CVCJA. (I'm sure he will understand.)

    stay safe.
    Skid, I'll stand by my original statement
    JFT 96

    I'm sorry, did I offend you with my opinion?
    You should hear the ones I keep to myself.

    Porthos, Athos, and Aramis = peter nap, skidmark and Grapeshot, d'Artagnan = ?

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