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Police Training

Liberty-or-Death

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
411
Location
23235
CVCJA

To answer your inquiry, I know Ed Levine of VirginiaOpenCarry.org is involved with assisting LEA's in his area in northern Virginia with training on OC.

Please accept a warm welcome from me personally. Also, please forgive the less than warm welcome from others. Some here are very tentative about offering their trust when they've witnessed acts by LEO's that were less than oath honoring. But we are not all jaded.

I think the OC community should welcome the opportunity to "reprogram" an officer and return him to do the same to his associates. What a terrible loss for this opportunity to be forfeited.

Please do accept the offer to meet and greet.
 

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
Officer safety and tactics?

With no disrespect intended, why would there be ANY difference in approach to someone that was openly carrying verses someone that was concealed?

I would think that the hidden firearm that suddenly appeared would be far more of a threat than someone that has a visible holstered firearm.

As such, other than an officer having to always be on guard, no out of the ordinary treatment is necessary.

The best way is to observe at a distance and see if they are doing anything suspicious.

Merely open carrying should not be treated as suspicious.

Sent from my Sony Xperia using Tapatalk 4
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
CVCJA

To answer your inquiry, I know Ed Levine of VirginiaOpenCarry.org is involved with assisting LEA's in his area in northern Virginia with training on OC.

Please accept a warm welcome from me personally. Also, please forgive the less than warm welcome from others. Some here are very tentative about offering their trust when they've witnessed acts by LEO's that were less than oath honoring. But we are not all jaded.

I think the OC community should welcome the opportunity to "reprogram" an officer and return him to do the same to his associates. What a terrible loss for this opportunity to be forfeited.

Please do accept the offer to meet and greet.

How about just welcoming him on your behalf and not apologizing for others. You aren't anyone's mother here.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Officer safety and tactics?

With no disrespect intended, why would there be ANY difference in approach to someone that was openly carrying verses someone that was concealed?

I would think that the hidden firearm that suddenly appeared would be far more of a threat than someone that has a visible holstered firearm.

As such, other than an officer having to always be on guard, no out of the ordinary treatment is necessary.

The best way is to observe at a distance and see if they are doing anything suspicious.

Merely open carrying should not be treated as suspicious.

Sent from my Sony Xperia using Tapatalk 4

We were taught that every one is armed concept, somewhere along the line that got dropped from the current tactikewl training. If every one is assumed to be armed, it is then both normal for armed people moving about in society, and safer when encountering not so upstanding citizens in an investigative role. So as you stated a person who is openly armed should be no different then the rest of society who very well may be armed but concealed.

ETA I have seen some of posts of those who claim to be officers, and as a former officer it is very embarrassing to see the level of hate they have for the public. If this is the norm for current police officers then the validation for the public distrust, and in some cases hatred is justified.

Forget the training, these officers need to be rooted out, and fired, and sometimes prosecuted. Without that there never will be public trust of law enforcement. It is time LEO's return to being part of the community instead of occupiers. We are not insurgents!

IOW get your poop together!
 
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Ezek

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
Cite please.

looking for it now, but I remember my father ( who works there) mention it in. will have to ask him where the info came from and if he can provide a link or something.

although to be honest if it is entirely valid it wouldn't surprise me.. had a few pothead friends back in the day, and they bought from some of the PD's finest kids, which I have witnessed with my own eyes.
 
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HPmatt

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
1,468
Location
Dallas
Here is how I read the OP - 'Hey guys - I got a $50k consulting gig as a training expert w XYZ PD to develop training policies - can yall give me some free research stuff that I can then edit/modify/cherrypick to earn my consulting fee?'

Thanks for your unpaid help on this.[emoji173]️[emoji173]️[emoji173]️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
looking for it now, but I remember my father ( who works there) mention it in. will have to ask him where the info came from and if he can provide a link or something.

although to be honest if it is entirely valid it wouldn't surprise me.. had a few pothead friends back in the day, and they bought from some of the PD's finest kids, which I have witnessed with my own eyes.
Witnessing kids buying pot and bribing the FBI are distinctly different things.
 

Ezek

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
Witnessing kids buying pot and bribing the FBI are distinctly different things.

I agree entirely, have emailed the old man seeing if he can find it. hoping he can considering it was around 10-14 years ago..
 
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Liberty-or-Death

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
411
Location
23235
How about just welcoming him on your behalf and not apologizing for others. You aren't anyone's mother here.
Peter, I don't want you to assume simply because my post followed yours that I referenced you in it. But if you feel conviction over it, it's all good.
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

I was just deletion power in the post above.
I will repeat it again...


07-29-2015, 09:24 AM
#1

CVCJA
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Newbie
Join DateJul 2015
LocationAmherst, VA
Posts1


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Thank you for driving by!!
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Maybe he received the answers he was looking for and has no reason to come back.

Hard to say, only he can answer that. But the answers he got, were common sense that goes without saying. I am amazed that we would have to tell a representative of law enforcement(training) that unless a person is breaking the law they should be left alone. That goes also for unarmed people. Some people like talking to police officers, and they will approach police officers to engage in conversation, that is fine. Again common sense applies, the officers should be polite, and respectful to those that wish to converse with them. But for the rest of people, just treat them like you would want to be treated, for myself that is being left alone.

It takes no special training for that, what it does take is removing the small percentage of bad people in law enforcement. No amount of training will make them good, they are just bad, and need to go.
 

Dave_pro2a

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Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
Hard to say, only he can answer that. But the answers he got, were common sense that goes without saying. I am amazed that we would have to tell a representative of law enforcement(training) that unless a person is breaking the law they should be left alone. That goes also for unarmed people. Some people like talking to police officers, and they will approach police officers to engage in conversation, that is fine. Again common sense applies, the officers should be polite, and respectful to those that wish to converse with them. But for the rest of people, just treat them like you would want to be treated, for myself that is being left alone.

It takes no special training for that, what it does take is removing the small percentage of bad people in law enforcement. No amount of training will make them good, they are just bad, and need to go.

They not only can't get rid of bad officers, the knowingly hire more.

http://graphics.latimes.com/behind-the-badge/
The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department hired dozens of officers even though background investigators found they had committed serious misconduct on or off duty, sheriff's files show.

For nearly 100 hires, investigators discovered evidence of dishonesty, such as making untrue statements or falsifying police records. At least 15 were caught cheating on the department's own polygraph exams.

Twenty-nine of those given jobs had previously been fired or pressured to resign from other law enforcement agencies over concerns about misconduct or workplace performance problems. Nearly 200 had been rejected from other agencies because of past misdeeds, failed entrance exams or other issues.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...rrendous-history-of-violence-against-citizens
Ferguson may have had a simple motivation in hiring Boyd. Speaking generally, St. Louis University law professor Roger Goldman said departments save money on training by hiring officers who are already licensed.

"Why are you willing to overlook that previous misconduct?" he asked. "You might not have that much money."

Goldman said this happens in "case after case," particularly in "an area like St. Louis, where you've got something like 55 departments."

"It's called the ‘muni shuffle,’" he said.

If Ferguson was hoping to save money on Boyd's training, it might wind up spending more in the end. The city is currently defending another lawsuit against Boyd.
 

DrMark

Lone Star Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
1,559
Location
Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
But the answers he got, were common sense that goes without saying.
I don't think so. He only got two answers (York Co. and Hanover), and I don't think he would have known without asking (and us saying).

Hopefully he got his answers among the other discussion, and some good will come from it.
 

ProShooter

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Mar 23, 2008
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www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
ProShooter

Perhaps the OP does deserve honest courteous replies. However, I'm at the point where I have an intense distrust of any and all cops so my evening would be spoiled if he were in my presence, hence my request to be forewarned of his attendance so that I can make other plans. It would be a better dinner for everyone there that way.

When you've had a cop lie to get a warrant, and deliberately avoid having the complainant make a sworn written statement to the magistrate as happened in my case perhaps you'd feel the same way. If the statement we did eventually get had been sworn to by the bus driver and the cop then you know that the video would have proved their sworn statement to be a crock of you-know-what. If you haven't seen the cop's written complaint let me know and I'll send you a copy, as for the video I know you saw that in the courtroom.

But my distaste goes back a lot further than 2013, a quarter of a century further back in another part of the world

ESPN 30 for 30: Hillsborough Disaster

OP

One thing you need to drill into the heads of all the people who come through your class

"don't you dare demand respect ... damn well EARN it !!!"


I understand how you feel. You have a right to be more than pissed - you got screwed....

Trust me, no one understands getting screwed by the system more than me. To that end, I know that there are good guys and gals out there trying to do the job to the best of their ability....the right way.

If someone asks for help, advice, etc., I'd like to see this community try to educate and assist others as it has always done.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I understand how you feel. You have a right to be more than pissed - you got screwed....

Trust me, no one understands getting screwed by the system more than me. To that end, I know that there are good guys and gals out there trying to do the job to the best of their ability....the right way.

If someone asks for help, advice, etc., I'd like to see this community try to educate and assist others as it has always done.
Well said.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
I guess no one answered for Henrico so I will, just in case.

Treat OCers like you would any other law abiding citizen, and like every Henrico cop I've ever come across - if there's no crime being committed just keep on moving, no need to even initiate a consensual encounter.

Also remember the 4th circuit court decision Black v. US:

"Third, it is undisputed that under the laws of North Carolina, which permit its residents to openly carry firearms . . . Troupe’s gun was legally possessed and displayed. The Government contends that because other laws prevent convicted felons from possessing guns, the officers could not know whether Troupe was lawfully in possession of the gun until they performed a records check. . . . We are not persuaded. Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states.”

Fourth, the officers’ assumption that where there is one gun there is most likely a second the court of appeals held that it “would abdicate [its] judicial role if [it] took law enforcement-created rules as sufficient to establish reasonable suspicion. . . . Such a rule subjects to seizure or search anyone who actively or passively associates with a gun carrier. The seizure has no connection with the individual seized, the activity they are involved in, their mannerisms, or their suspiciousness; rather, the seizure is a mere happenstance of geography.”

“Fifth, it is counterintuitive that Black provided a justification for reasonable suspicion by volunteering his ID to the officer. . . . The record indicates that three of the six men provided identification to the officers, thus, Black’s action could hardly be characterized as overly cooperative. Additionally, we have noted that this type of argument—that cooperation is a justification for reasonable suspicion—actually places a defendant in a worse position than if he had simply refused to cooperate altogether because the Supreme Court has ‘consistently held that a refusal to cooperate, without more, does not furnish the minimal level of objective justification needed for a detention or seizure.’ . . . Likewise, there is nothing suspicious about the fact that Black’s ID revealed he lived outside the district. . . . The pertinent facts remaining in the reasonable suspicion analysis are that the men were in a high crime area at night. These facts, even when coupled with the officers’ irrational assumptions based on innocent facts, fail to support the conclusion that Officer Zastrow had reasonable suspicion that Black was engaging in criminal activity.”

For these reasons, Mr. Black’s seizure was not reasonable. Accordingly, the decision to deny Mr. Black’s suppression motion was reversed. Rather than remand for further proceedings, the court of appeals vacated Mr. Black’s sentence."

http://www.fedagent.com/case-law-up...ysis-of-the-free-to-leave-standard-of-seizure
 
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