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Thread: KY homeowner shoots down snooping Drone gets arrested

  1. #1
    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    KY homeowner shoots down snooping Drone gets arrested

    I like this guy. Drove hovering over his pool and kids, blasts it. 4 Drone operators come to accost him - homeowner w shotgun and OC 40cal - and they back off and call cops.

    Cops arrest homeowner and give drone back to snoopers, including SIM card. Looks like homeowner can sue drone operators and town cops for giving over evidence. Drone operators violated FAA license rules....,assuming newspaper report is true...


    http://www.wdrb.com/story/29650818/h...ght-to-privacy

    Can't tell from the TV interview clip if he is carrying or it is just his dropdown holster.

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    Last edited by HPmatt; 07-29-2015 at 01:01 PM.
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    Hobby and recreational UAV are flown voluntarily under the Academy of Model Aerodynamics's rules.

    Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code
    http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf
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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Drone operators spying on underage girls around pools? No. Cant be. It's against the law for them to do that. /sarcasm

    Not the smartest of moves on the dads part, I'll grant that, but I cant fault the logic behind doing it.
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-shooting-quot
    Link to another post on this topic. I agree that it is not the smartest thing to shoot into the air in a densely populated area. There could be other options though. The question asked on the other post is at what point to you lose any rights to the airspace above your property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    [ ... ] I agree that it is not the smartest thing to shoot into the air in a densely populated area. [ ... ]
    Can you quantify your perceived risk of "shoot[ing] into the air in a densely populated area," or it is a conventional wisdom gut-feeling thing?

    Think of how much skill it takes to hit a proportional target at significant range.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-06-2015 at 07:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Can you quantify your perceived risk of "shoot[ing] into the air in a densely populated area," or it is a conventional wisdom gut-feeling thing?

    Think of how much skill it takes to hit a proportional target at significant range.
    Not sure if your actually attempting to make the argument that it is completely safe to shoot into the air with no concern where that round will come back down. There was not hard target to stop the buckshot and yeah, it is my understanding that it is pretty commonly accepted that the rounds have to come back down to Earth eventually. All this is not even considering that almost every city has an ordinance that you DO NOT discharge a firearm within city limits. I say "almost every" because I do not have the time or desire to find out exactly how many but I do know that was a factor is this article.
    Last edited by willy1094; 08-07-2015 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    Not sure if your actually attempting to make the argument that it is completely safe to shoot into the air with no concern where that round will come back down.[ ... ]
    The operative word was quantify. If you like I will walk you through the demonstration that the odds are greater than 10 million to one against hitting a man sized target at a mile with a random shot - like an air shot.

    Even in the most densely populated city only 0.3% area is covered by man sized targets.

    It is not completely safe to even get out of bed.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-07-2015 at 02:29 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    While sad, that is ONE.........and it was not a shotgun pellet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    While sad, that is ONE.........and it was not a shotgun pellet.
    I wasn't going to post every story I found about someone being injured or killed on my Google search. As far as quantifying the risk, it is relative to how common it is for people to fire into the air. Even though the odds are low you cannot deny that the odds go up with more occurrences and density of potential victims. I never said you WILL kill someone by firing into the air. The fact that there is a risk at all should stop any responsible gun owner from firing into the air. A drone flying around does not justify the risk in my mind unless it is armed with a weapon capable of doing physical harm to someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The operative word was quantify. If you like I will walk you through the demonstration that the odds are greater than 10 million to one against hitting a man sized target at a mile with a random shot - like an air shot.

    Even in the most densely populated city only 0.3% area is covered by man sized targets.

    It is not completely safe to even get out of bed.
    Getting out of bed provides considerable benefits that can be weighed against the odds of injury. Indeed, failure to get out of bed carries certain risks itself.

    What are the benefits (to either the individual shooter or to larger society) of randomly firing a gun into the air?

    In the case of an imminent threat to life or limb, a shot into the air at the thread would have the benefit of potentially ending the threat and preserving innocent life or limb. In such a case, the low risk of injuring an unintended target provides some comfort. But to shoot a gun into the air where there is no threat to life or limb?

    I'd also like to see your calculations on the 10 million to 1 as I find it hard to believe.

    From Wiki I find two cases this year of deaths from randomly falling bullets with a total of 7 fatalities in the last 10 years. Am I to believe that over the last 10 years gun owners have fired at least 70 million rounds into the air? Even at a low end cost of $0.25 per round, we're talking about 17 million dollars spent on shooting guns into the air? No target practice, no enjoying seeing holes in targets or cans tipping over. Just really expensive noise makers?

    Bear in mind, these are reported deaths. Non-fatal (but potentially life altering) injures would raise the number of "human sized targets" hit by random gun fire and thus, statistically raise the number of rounds fired randomly.

    For example, from the same Wiki article: "Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[6]"

    So by your claimed risk of 10 million to one, that would be more than a BILLION rounds of ammo randomly fired into the air.

    A billion rounds at $0.25 a pop is $250 Million in ammo shot into the sky in one US metro area in less than a decade.

    Something just isn't computing for me.

    Can you help me out?

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Closed Thread a coming? We have gone down this rat hole once already...no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Closed Thread a coming? We have gone down this rat hole once already...no?
    Yes we have, and I cannot see it having a different outcome.

    I happened to spot this, and thought it relates to having drones flying over people.

    Drone Crash Caused More Injuries at ‘Great Bull Run’ Than Bulls

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...un-than-bulls/

    FUQ
    It turns out that the bulls weren’t the only thing those attending the Great Bull Run in Virginia had to worry about. An RC drone crashed into the crowd at the weekend event, injuring a few people.

    The drone dropped into the stands at Virginia Motorsports Park in Richmond Saturday, highlighting why the Federal Aviation Administration has been tasked with drafting new regulations to govern the growing use of this technology by both the public and private markets. Back in June, TheBlaze reported on another civilian drone crash, which also showed how the technology could pose physical dangers in some situations.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-20-2015 at 04:41 PM.
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    It seems the discussion rather quickly starts to conflate several inter-related issues: whether the homeowner or the drone operators have legal claim on the airspace above the homeowner's land, or who has legal claim on airspace at which altitude, thus the question of trespass, homeowner's privacy, whether the homeowner has any right at all to disable the drone, and finally whether using a gun is the proper method to disable.

    Let me make my position clear, in reverse order:

    1-Excepting very rural property owners on large spreads, I believe shooting down a hobby drone is going to violate some basic rules of gun safety in all but the most extreme cases. If a drone is not posing an imminent threat to life or limb, then I don't believe one can justify discharging a firearm into the air in suburban environments. If you can legally and safely shoot flying birds in your backyard, then doing likewise to a drone is not likely a violation of safety rules

    Having made that clear, after having previously challenged the assertion that shooting into the air poses a negligibly low risk to others....

    2-I believe the homeowner does a right to disable a drone that is hovering at a low altitude, making multiple low speed passes, or otherwise giving a reasonable man belief of invading privacy, provoking annoyance, etc. Obviously, mere annoyance does not warrant disabling the drone in a manner that would create a risk to life or limb. If the operator can be located and peacefully encouraged to end his trespass, that is probably a preferred approach. But if the operator cannot be found, I do not believe homeowners have any obligation to endure ongoing violations of privacy, trespass, nor annoyance from someone operating a drone over the homeowner's land at low altitude. If you don't want my goats to chew on your tires and scratch your paint, don't park your car illegally and uninvited inside my goat pasture. If you don't want your dog shot for harassing livestock, keep your dog properly confined on your own property. If you don't want your cat trapped (humanely) and turned over to animal control, don't let it run loose to crap in and dig up my flower beds. And If you don't want your drone damaged by my hose, paintball gun, baseball bat, fist, etc, don't fly it over my private property in such a manner that it could possibly be damaged by such things. Even a shotgun has a pretty limited range for going after a drone. Stay beyond that range and the odds of a homeowner even wanted to use the shotgun probably drop to near zero.

    3-I believe the homeowner has (nearly) complete claim on the airspace from ground level up to a level of about 200 feet. This is the height to which I can erect a ham radio tower without having to notify either the FCC or the FAA. From 200 feet up to the 500 or 1000 foot minimum safe flight for manned flights is debatable. From ground level up to the height of my highest structure (chimney, radio tower, tree tops, etc) is not debatable at all. Flying under my tree cover, canopies, or other structures I believe is grounds to immediately disable the drone just as I'd take immediate action against a stray/feral dog harassing my livestock or threatening a family member.

    Now, if any of the drone operators want to directly discuss the issue of who has rightful claim to the airspace above my private, residential property from ground level up to a height of my highest structure, my treetops, or the 200 foot limit at which I can build an antenna without (generally) being required to notify either the FAA or FCC, I'm game. If they want to instead focus on how bad it is to shoot a gun in the city, we'll be in violent agreement with little to discuss. If they want to discuss what my proper recourse is short of using a gun, we might also have some interesting discussion, but only after we establish at what height they believe my exclusive claim to my airspace ends such that they have any right at all to be operating in it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Tip of the iceberg

    Drones and air space - no simple answer.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/drones-b...ace-1431535417

    ************************************************** ********************************

    However - we are waaay off topic. Further discussion in this direction needs to be in the Social Lounge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Drones and air space - no simple answer.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/drones-b...ace-1431535417

    ************************************************** ********************************

    However - we are waaay off topic. Further discussion in this direction needs to be in the Social Lounge.
    Warning, right upfront. This will likely turn into a TLDR.

    Agreed, Grapeshot. Anything the FAA touches becomes complicated. For a hobbyist flying any RC aircraft there are no "official" rules or regulations except for what your city or county may pass. There is a AMA Best Practices guideline that has recommendations that most responsible hobbyists try to follow. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf I have my FAA exemption, operating unmanned aerial systems is my career so I have some knowledge on the subject matter. As a commercial drone operation I can tell you that the /moment/ you choose to accept any payment for drone operations you fall under FAA purview and it's an entirely different game. Linked is the FAA FAQ for commercial drone operations, https://www.faa.gov/uas/faq/media/10...Fact_Sheet.pdf

    Frankly it's about as dull as you might imagine so I'm going to try and break down some food for thought and hopefully provide a little education on why you probably have nothing to fear in terms of invasion of privacy for the next few years.

    Te begin with the VAST majority and I'm talking 95+ percent of drones you will encounter on a day to day basis have NO zoom ability whatsoever. This means if I'm flying 60 feet up, (which is fairly average if I want to avoid trees and power lines), I can see nothing more than if I was standing 60 feet away from your fence looking into your backyard. Honestly, I'd see considerably less from a drone than if I were on the ground say sitting on a hilltop using my good ole Mk I eyeballs. The cameras on most drones are designed to shoot panoramic landscapes, not designed for close, detail work, also when looking straight down on a subject you lose all sense of depth and perspective so guys? Your wife's or daughter's girly bits just aren't going to look that impressive from that far overhead, sorry.

    For a drone operator to see anything with any detail they'd have to be just a few feet away, and here's the kicker. These things operate line of sight. For me to be able to operate a drone without any fear of losing it, my radio transmitter has to be able to "see" it. If you have one hovering over your backyard, look around. I guarantee you the operator is not far away.

    Now to the meat of the subject for our forum here, shooting one down. Like I said, I do this for a living, that being said? I have a family, I have children. I am a very protective papa bear, if I said one hovering over my backyard, it'd be my first instinct too. DON'T. Thus far, the body of court rulings has come down in favor of the drone operator. At the very least its' willfull destruction of property. People the average Phantom 3 or similar drone starts at a thousand dollars and goes up. Once you figure jail time, lost wages, and court costs? You could've bought yourself a really nice firearm for a few seconds of gratification.

    Part two of that is that very nearly every drone that has a camera has a built in gps system accurate to within three feet, the really good ones get that down to within inches. They also constantly transmit back telemetry to the receiver as to exactly where they are, how they were oriented which direction they were facing, the list goes on and on. So you're really not destroying the evidence.

    Now we move on to the commercial drone operator. I am bound by FAA regulations and guidelines as to what I can and cannot do, where I can fly, at what altitudes, etc. This is a PITA, the flip-side however is that I am protected by FAA regulations as well. My drones have a federally registered N- tail number and they are treated exactly like any other aircraft. What this means is IF you shoot down or disable a commercial drone as far as the FAA is concerned you have just downed a General Aviation Aircraft, they treat it no different than if you'd shot down a Cessna and their fines are much less forgiving. My commercial drones can cost as much as ten to twelve thousand dollars, something else to keep in mind. I also fly the base models as well for simple photo shoots.

    How can you tell the difference between mine and a hobbyist? You can't. Except that I will have knocked on the doors of any neighbors next to any home or farm I may be filming tell you who I am, what I'll be doing, how long I expect to be there and hand you my card in case you have any questions or concerns.

    TLDR: Do not shoot down drones. So far, court cases have found in favor of the drone operator in terms of damages. If you shoot down a drone flown by a commercial, FAA recognized company you face federal fines and penalties on top of eight grand or more for a commercial drone and camera gear. Again, you can get yourself a really nice firearm for an instant's gratification. Not to mention any applicable unlawful discharge of firearm laws in your area.

    One last thing to consider, even if you think I am over your property, it does not mean I am filming it. From one hundred feet in the air I can take in a vast area, most likely I am filming infrastructure or urban planning.

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    Not guilty is my verdict.

    For many reasons.

    Never seen the video either and most guys here say "where's the video?" mantra...but not on this thread LOL.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Dont need to see it, other than for entertainment purposes. Drone loitering overhead, teenage daughter sunbathing in a fenced backyard, totally justified in my book. Invasion of privacy, trespassing by proxy, I dont care what you call it.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Not guilty is my verdict.

    For many reasons.

    Never seen the video either and most guys here say "where's the video?" mantra...but not on this thread LOL.
    Now I can agree with you on this, any DA will have a damn hard time getting a conviction with public sentiment the way it is towards drones. And as far as civil, if the plaintiff loses they will foot the bill of the defendant. And they also will run up against a jury more sympathetic to the defendant.

    It is very simple, do not want to put your drone in danger, do not fly it where it will be in danger. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone that uses tech to spy on people for any reason.

    If I am on a jury for such a case my vote will be not guilty, or not negligent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Dont need to see it, other than for entertainment purposes. Drone loitering overhead, teenage daughter sunbathing in a fenced backyard, totally justified in my book. Invasion of privacy, trespassing by proxy, I dont care what you call it.
    So you going to shoot your next door neighbor standing in his second story window?

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    So you going to shoot your next door neighbor standing in his second story window?
    How do you know that your neighbor can see into your house from the 2nd story window?
    (Light travels in a straight line in air for the most part)

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    Appreciate the effort Sundiver .

    They have been made aware. Let the buyer shooter beware.

    Opened the thread as a courtesy - returning to locked.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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