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Thread: BCA has not updated their web site

  1. #1
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    BCA has not updated their web site

    I see MN has not updated their web site to go along with the new law change effective today.

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca...ciprocity.aspx


    Permit to Carry Reciprocity
    Page Content
    Minnesota permit holders who plan to visit another state, and who also wish to carry a concealed firearm while visiting that state, are urged to contact that state before traveling. This will allow Minnesota permit holders to determine all restrictions or prohibitions regarding the carrying of concealed firearms in those states, as well as their laws regarding firearms and weapons in general. Most of these states have web pages dedicated to this subject. State firearm laws and reciprocal agreements may change frequently, and are also subject to court interpretation.

    Information contained on this page is not to be considered legal advice. Always contact an attorney licensed to practice law in your state for any legal advice.

    States With Laws NOT Substantially Similar to Minnesota
    On an annual basis, the Minnesota Department of Public Safety is directed to establish and publish an online Internet listing of states which have handgun carry permit laws that are not substantially similar to Minnesota’s law under Minnesota Session Laws 2003, Chapter 28, Article 2 Section 21, Minn. Stat. 624.714 Subd. 16. The department has determined that laws of the following states are not substantially similar to Minnesota (or have no handgun permit provisions) and are not valid in Minnesota:
    Alabama ​Florida ​Maine ​New Jersey ​South Carolina
    ​Arizona ​Georgia ​Maryland ​New York ​South Dakota
    ​California ​Hawaii ​Massachusetts ​North Carolina ​Vermont
    ​Colorado ​Idaho ​Mississippi ​North Dakota ​Virginia
    ​Connecticut ​Illinois ​Montana ​Oregon ​Washington
    ​Delaware ​Indiana ​Nebraska ​Pennsylvania ​West Virginia
    ​District of Columbia ​Iowa ​New Hampshire ​Rhode Island ​Wisconsin

    Out of State Permits Valid in Minnesota
    Minnesota laws authorize individuals holding gun permits from the following states to carry in Minnesota:
    ​Alaska ​Kentucky ​Missouri ​Ohio ​Texas
    ​Arkansas ​Louisiana ​New Mexico ​Oklahoma ​Utah
    ​Kansas ​Michigan ​Nevada ​Tennessee ​Wyoming

    Please note that the permit issued by your state does not supersede Minnesota's laws or regulations. Legal conduct in your state may not be legal in Minnesota.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I see MN has not updated their web site to go along with the new law change effective today.

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca...ciprocity.aspx


    Permit to Carry Reciprocity
    Page Content
    Minnesota permit holders who plan to visit another state, and who also wish to carry a concealed firearm while visiting that state, are urged to contact that state before traveling. This will allow Minnesota permit holders to determine all restrictions or prohibitions regarding the carrying of concealed firearms in those states, as well as their laws regarding firearms and weapons in general. Most of these states have web pages dedicated to this subject. State firearm laws and reciprocal agreements may change frequently, and are also subject to court interpretation.

    Information contained on this page is not to be considered legal advice. Always contact an attorney licensed to practice law in your state for any legal advice.

    States With Laws NOT Substantially Similar to Minnesota
    On an annual basis, the Minnesota Department of Public Safety is directed to establish and publish an online Internet listing of states which have handgun carry permit laws that are not substantially similar to Minnesota’s law under Minnesota Session Laws 2003, Chapter 28, Article 2 Section 21, Minn. Stat. 624.714 Subd. 16. The department has determined that laws of the following states are not substantially similar to Minnesota (or have no handgun permit provisions) and are not valid in Minnesota:
    Alabama ​Florida ​Maine ​New Jersey ​South Carolina
    ​Arizona ​Georgia ​Maryland ​New York ​South Dakota
    ​California ​Hawaii ​Massachusetts ​North Carolina ​Vermont
    ​Colorado ​Idaho ​Mississippi ​North Dakota ​Virginia
    ​Connecticut ​Illinois ​Montana ​Oregon ​Washington
    ​Delaware ​Indiana ​Nebraska ​Pennsylvania ​West Virginia
    ​District of Columbia ​Iowa ​New Hampshire ​Rhode Island ​Wisconsin

    Out of State Permits Valid in Minnesota
    Minnesota laws authorize individuals holding gun permits from the following states to carry in Minnesota:
    ​Alaska ​Kentucky ​Missouri ​Ohio ​Texas
    ​Arkansas ​Louisiana ​New Mexico ​Oklahoma ​Utah
    ​Kansas ​Michigan ​Nevada ​Tennessee ​Wyoming

    Please note that the permit issued by your state does not supersede Minnesota's laws or regulations. Legal conduct in your state may not be legal in Minnesota.




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    Do you think they'll drag their feet or stonewall signing new reciprocity agreements? Although the law did change, the wording just seems so vague that it leaves it up to the agency to decide who's "similar" and who isn't.

  3. #3
    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Cool

    The language loosened as of yesterday, there was nothing that guaranteed reciprocity, just slightly loosened the requirement from "substantially similar" to "similar".

    The DPS can now use that language in their evaluation.

    I've heard that we will be losing Texas and Utah, but gaining 8 more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I see MN has not updated their web site to go along with the new law change effective today.

    https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca...ciprocity.aspx


    Permit to Carry Reciprocity
    Page Content
    Minnesota permit holders who plan to visit another state, and who also wish to carry a concealed firearm while visiting that state, are urged to contact that state before traveling. This will allow Minnesota permit holders to determine all restrictions or prohibitions regarding the carrying of concealed firearms in those states, as well as their laws regarding firearms and weapons in general. Most of these states have web pages dedicated to this subject. State firearm laws and reciprocal agreements may change frequently, and are also subject to court interpretation.

    Information contained on this page is not to be considered legal advice. Always contact an attorney licensed to practice law in your state for any legal advice.

    States With Laws NOT Substantially Similar to Minnesota
    On an annual basis, the Minnesota Department of Public Safety is directed to establish and publish an online Internet listing of states which have handgun carry permit laws that are not substantially similar to Minnesota’s law under Minnesota Session Laws 2003, Chapter 28, Article 2 Section 21, Minn. Stat. 624.714 Subd. 16. The department has determined that laws of the following states are not substantially similar to Minnesota (or have no handgun permit provisions) and are not valid in Minnesota:
    Alabama ​Florida ​Maine ​New Jersey ​South Carolina
    ​Arizona ​Georgia ​Maryland ​New York ​South Dakota
    ​California ​Hawaii ​Massachusetts ​North Carolina ​Vermont
    ​Colorado ​Idaho ​Mississippi ​North Dakota ​Virginia
    ​Connecticut ​Illinois ​Montana ​Oregon ​Washington
    ​Delaware ​Indiana ​Nebraska ​Pennsylvania ​West Virginia
    ​District of Columbia ​Iowa ​New Hampshire ​Rhode Island ​Wisconsin

    Out of State Permits Valid in Minnesota
    Minnesota laws authorize individuals holding gun permits from the following states to carry in Minnesota:
    ​Alaska ​Kentucky ​Missouri ​Ohio ​Texas
    ​Arkansas ​Louisiana ​New Mexico ​Oklahoma ​Utah
    ​Kansas ​Michigan ​Nevada ​Tennessee ​Wyoming

    Please note that the permit issued by your state does not supersede Minnesota's laws or regulations. Legal conduct in your state may not be legal in Minnesota.




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    It seems that all state permits are valid in Minnesota at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    The language loosened as of yesterday, there was nothing that guaranteed reciprocity, just slightly loosened the requirement from "substantially similar" to "similar".

    The DPS can now use that language in their evaluation.

    I've heard that we will be losing Texas and Utah, but gaining 8 more.
    The DPS has not issued a list under the new law. The new law is quite clear. If a state is not on the list, its permit is valid in Minnesota. I think the DPS would have a tough time prosecuting someone from say, North Dakota who had a permit from North Dakota and was carrying in Minnesota today. Clearly, the old list is no longer valid.

    DPS has had ample time to create a new list.

  5. #5
    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    The law clearly states they have to publish the list annually. They new law didn't change that reporting requirement.

    The bill initially started out just carving out ND to carry in MN. We were trying to get universal recognition, but given our legislative and gubernatorial makeup that had a snowballs chance.

    ND actually created a whole 2nd tier system to get reciprocity with MN at the guidance of Joe Newton, DPS Council. After they had done that, Joe refused to allow because he nitpicked a single issue that wasn't the same. (Apparently yo Newton, "substantially similar" meant "exactly the same")

    Newton agreed to the language change saying it would allow him to accept ND and several other states. We'll be holding him accountable to that agreement.

    Oh, and DPS wouldn't prosecute anyone, because they cant. But the city or county atty wouldn't have much problem. Since the law states:

    "A person holding a carry permit from a state not on the list may use the license or permit in this state subject to the rights, privileges, and requirements of this section."
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    So, what law does the City or County Attorney prosecute under?

    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    The law clearly states they have to publish the list annually. They new law didn't change that reporting requirement.

    The bill initially started out just carving out ND to carry in MN. We were trying to get universal recognition, but given our legislative and gubernatorial makeup that had a snowballs chance.

    ND actually created a whole 2nd tier system to get reciprocity with MN at the guidance of Joe Newton, DPS Council. After they had done that, Joe refused to allow because he nitpicked a single issue that wasn't the same. (Apparently yo Newton, "substantially similar" meant "exactly the same")

    Newton agreed to the language change saying it would allow him to accept ND and several other states. We'll be holding him accountable to that agreement.

    Oh, and DPS wouldn't prosecute anyone, because they cant. But the city or county atty wouldn't have much problem. Since the law states:

    "A person holding a carry permit from a state not on the list may use the license or permit in this state subject to the rights, privileges, and requirements of this section."

    Exactly. "A person holding a carry permit from a state not on the list may use the license or permit in this state subject to the rights, privileges, and requirements of this section."

    Assume a person with a North Dakota permit carries in Minnesota. What is a city or county attorney going to charge them with, that they could not charge someone who had a Minnesota permit?

    Sorry if I am being obtuse, but I find your answer confusing. Are you saying someone with another state's permit would be charged with a crime? Or, are you saying that someone with another state's permit would be treated the same as a person with a Minnesota permit?

  7. #7
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    The list of non permitted states is extensive, and North Dakota is currently on it.

    If your state is not on the list of non recognized states, you are allowed to carry.

    Since North Dakota is currently on the list of non recognized states, anyone carrying in MN today w/ a ND permit would be treated the same as someone without a permit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    Exactly. "A person holding a carry permit from a state not on the list may use the license or permit in this state subject to the rights, privileges, and requirements of this section."

    Assume a person with a North Dakota permit carries in Minnesota. What is a city or county attorney going to charge them with, that they could not charge someone who had a Minnesota permit?

    Sorry if I am being obtuse, but I find your answer confusing. Are you saying someone with another state's permit would be charged with a crime? Or, are you saying that someone with another state's permit would be treated the same as a person with a Minnesota permit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    The list of non permitted states is extensive, and North Dakota is currently on it.

    If your state is not on the list of non recognized states, you are allowed to carry.

    Since North Dakota is currently on the list of non recognized states, anyone carrying in MN today w/ a ND permit would be treated the same as someone without a permit.

    Do you have a link to a current list that was posted after August 1st. I can only find the one the reflects the old language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Do you have a link to a current list that was posted after August 1st. I can only find the one the reflects the old language.
    I've sent a data practices request to find out the date of their last publishing. (They don't have a timestamp on the current one)

    It's the opinion of the revisor's office that the language has been applied, and is to be used at the next cycle the report is due.

    I've also heard from a legislator that DPS will be releasing an updated list soon.
    Last edited by robdoar; 08-05-2015 at 09:02 AM.
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    Thanks, Good research

    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    I've sent a data practices request to find out the date of their last publishing. (They don't have a timestamp on the current one)

    It's the opinion of the revisor's office that the language has been applied, and is to be used at the next cycle the report is due.

    I've also heard from a legislator that DPS will be releasing an updated list soon.
    Good job. I am looking forward to the revised list.

  11. #11
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    It's Out

    Gained 8, lost 4 (that we technically, shouldn't have had)

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    Thanks for the info
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    I thought I recall other state's reciprocity agreements were able to carve out certain aspects (like 18-20 y/o and non-residents,exc.). Any reason MN can't do the same and simply sign an agreement that carves out 18-20 y/o since that's apparently a no-go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    Any reason MN can't do the same and simply sign an agreement that carves out 18-20 y/o since that's apparently a no-go?
    Short answer:
    Of course it can be done but the powers that be chose not to.

    Longer answer:
    I recall an incident where a person that would have been too young to get a resident permit got a permit from out of state that was recognized in state, the person was cited for carrying without a permit but argued in court that there was no law prohibiting what he had done. I believe this was in Pennsylvania which has had a love/hate relationship with the "Florida loophole" in carry permits. It is possible that Minnesota wanted to avoid this ambiguity and required that the age requirement for permit issuance matched. I do not recall that being explicit in the law so it is possible that the decision was left for interpretation. The agency that interprets the law is also responsible for enforcement and having a very straightforward list of allowed permits without the caveat of also having to check age makes enforcement easier. This is of course the easy path for the lazy but that is what happens when you give law making ability to the executive branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by press1280 View Post
    I thought I recall other state's reciprocity agreements were able to carve out certain aspects (like 18-20 y/o and non-residents,exc.). Any reason MN can't do the same and simply sign an agreement that carves out 18-20 y/o since that's apparently a no-go?
    The question is if it can be done administrativly or legislatively.

    If you were to take a look at the intent of the law, you could see that an administrative tweak would be acceptable, but don't expect that from Mark Dayton's administration.

    We'll probably have to get a bill through.
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    Being from Missouri and spending a lot of time in Minnesota and just now receiving my Missouri ccw permit it irritates the crap out of me that just because my state wants to allow 19 year Olds to carry, I mean we allow 17 year Olds to join the military and 18 year olds to defend it why not let a 19 year old, who has completed the NRA approved nation wide class and has been thoroughly scrutinized not only by their local Sheriff but the FBI and whoever else has to do their deal in the 30-45 day background check process before we get our permit issued to us. (Even after it comes back from the FBI, the local Sheriff still has final say if he wants to allow you to carry concealed, if you are a trouble maker or problem citizen, even if you have never been arrested the sheriff can still deny you.)

    I talked one your Department of Criminal Apprehension officials and even he had to get clarification as to why those of us who are over 21 couldn't carry anymore..... I guess I will take my month old nra concealed carry course completion paper and my fresh from my local Sheriffs machine Missouri ccw permit to a county Sheriff's office in Minnesota next time I get up there.

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    Oops I ramble/ranted. Sorry if it doesn't all make sense, it's been a long day in Texas.

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    It all breaks down to the people of MN voted in a anti gun democratic governor.

    Common sense and gun control do not go together.
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    The analogy from minors armed defending the nation to minors legally armed for self-defense fails for the lack of close supervision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40calcarrier View Post
    I guess I will take my month old nra concealed carry course completion paper and my fresh from my local Sheriffs machine Missouri ccw permit to a county Sheriff's office in Minnesota next time I get up there.

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    Hope its from a MN BCA approved instructor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    Hope its from a MN BCA approved instructor.
    I was told by the agent i talked to that if it was an NRA course it was good enough.... 50 rds fired from 21 feet in a 9" target with revolver and 50 from a semi auto.....

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40calcarrier View Post
    I was told by the agent i talked to that if it was an NRA course it was good enough.... 50 rds fired from 21 feet in a 9" target with revolver and 50 from a semi auto.....

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    Not at all accurate.

    MN does not have a set shooting qualification, and there is nothing in the law that specifically allows for NRA courses.

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    The Sheriff can of course accept any training he wishes, but I haven't met one yet that will take anything but a MNBCA certified course, and that's not a call that any BCA agent can make.
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