Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: What are the concequences of using a firearm 'legally'

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ellsworth Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,125

    What are the concequences of using a firearm 'legally'

    Not long ago, I became a member of USCCA, so that I have some help if I ever use my hand gun 'legally.' I put the word legally in parenthesis because even when you and I use it to protect our or our family's life, the word 'legal has to be legal ( no parenthesis) in the eyes of the system. I'll quote from a USCCA magazine sent by e mail for free download to members, so I cannot put the link for it here. What are your thoughts on this topic. It seems that the system wants to disarm us at the first opportunity. It doesn't matter that even if we use our gun as prescribed by law, they will take it away from us. Is this view below a recent trend? Were we more protected by the legal system when we used our gun to protect our life 50 years ago? Do you agree with the writer of the article below? I think leos have more of a chance of being restored to their job after an incident where they 'legally' used their gun and killed the perpetrator. This was the point I was trying to make to me Chief buddy, but he didn't see it as I did.

    PROTECT YOURSELF FROM THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES OF USING YOUR GUN IN SELF-DEFENSE...

    Now I need to address the major problem
    that has quickly become one of the
    biggest concerns for all responsibly prepared
    citizens of the United States.
    The best way for me to summarize this
    concern is with the huge question that
    people are always asking me:
    “The state I live in is pretty friendly
    toward self-defense and home defense.
    But it seems like you hear all these horror
    stories about people who still end up
    getting sued.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-04-2015 at 05:03 PM. Reason: FUQ only - rule #11

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,450
    Disclaimer - I just read the first part of your post.

    The best answer you are going to get is that you will most likely be arrested, be indicted, and have to cover the expense of going to trial (and possibly appeals after that). Add in tje cost of a bail bond if you are able to be bailed out.

    Self defense is pretty much a claim of the affirmative legal defense of excusable or justified homicide (which includes the lesser included offense of attempted homicide). In order to claim it was excusable or justified you first have to plead guilty to the homicide charge. It's then the crapshoot of being able to convince the trier of fact that the circumstances and your behavior meet the standards of excusable or justified established in case law. To paraphrase a distinguished attorney that frequents OCDO it goes something like this: "Yes. I shot him. I meant to shoot him. He was pointing a (gun/stick/lead pipe/mother-in-law) at me and I feared he was going to either kill me or greatly hurt me with it so I shot him to stop him from doing that. If he did that again I'd shoot him again."

    And even if you win the criminal trial there is the possibility (likelihood these days) of a civil suit. More attorney fees, more investigator fees, more expert witness fees. And your homeowner's insurance policy will be of no use as it only covers accidents and you are on record as having intentionally and willfully done it.

    Read this thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ight=insurance to get some background on the various types of "insurance" out there.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ellsworth Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,125
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Disclaimer - I just read the first part of your post.

    The best answer you are going to get is that you will most likely be arrested, be indicted, and have to cover the expense of going to trial (and possibly appeals after that). Add in tje cost of a bail bond if you are able to be bailed out.

    Self defense is pretty much a claim of the affirmative legal defense of excusable or justified homicide (which includes the lesser included offense of attempted homicide). In order to claim it was excusable or justified you first have to plead guilty to the homicide charge. It's then the crapshoot of being able to convince the trier of fact that the circumstances and your behavior meet the standards of excusable or justified established in case law. To paraphrase a distinguished attorney that frequents OCDO it goes something like this: "Yes. I shot him. I meant to shoot him. He was pointing a (gun/stick/lead pipe/mother-in-law) at me and I feared he was going to either kill me or greatly hurt me with it so I shot him to stop him from doing that. If he did that again I'd shoot him again."

    And even if you win the criminal trial there is the possibility (likelihood these days) of a civil suit. More attorney fees, more investigator fees, more expert witness fees. And your homeowner's insurance policy will be of no use as it only covers accidents and you are on record as having intentionally and willfully done it.

    Read this thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ight=insurance to get some background on the various types of "insurance" out there.

    stay safe.
    Grapeshot removed the rest of the post, but you said basically what it said.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,450
    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Grapeshot removed the rest of the post, but you said basically what it said.
    Click on my user name above, change it to "user" (without the quotation marks) then "view forum posts". The thread is still there that way - at least it is for me.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 08-04-2015 at 08:01 PM. Reason: corrected label
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ellsworth Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,125
    To continue the article goes on below. It's all I need from the main article. What is wrong with the scenario below is highlighted. In my opening monolog, I asked when did the system become dark and eager to disarm a citizen when he fired his weapon legally according to all protocol (My life was in imminent danger of being snuffed out.) and to turn it around to make it look like a crime and throw the person in jail. I get the feeling that leos are more apt to be restored than we. I bet this type of thinking was absent 50 plus years ago.

    I’m going to tell you like it is: after you pull the trigger and successfully defend your family, you are opening a HUGE can of worms in the form of legal battles, court costs, and a financial burden that may impact your life in a pretty harsh way...It’s true that you stand a pretty good chance of being arrested and charged with a crime if you are ever involved in any type of self-defense incident. It happens to good guys every day—even in the cases that seem the most cut and dry. I’ve seen these charges include “unlawful discharge of a weapon,” and charges related to disturbing the peace, to negligence, to brandishing a deadly weapon, to assault, to manslaughter, and all the way up to murder. The fact is, when a cop rolls up on the scene, no matter how clean cut the situation seems, they have to suspect the worst.
    They will probably try to trick you. In an attempt to save money, the state may offer you a plea bargain where they tell you something like, “If you are convicted of these crimes, you’ll be put in prison for years. But plead guilty to this lesser crime, and we’ll let you go with a big, stiff fine— sometimes a short jail sentence—and you will never be able to legally own a firearm again.”
    Last edited by Law abider; 08-05-2015 at 09:52 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ellsworth Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,125
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Click on my user name above, change it to "user" (without the quotation marks) then "view forum posts". The thread is still there that way - at least it is for me.

    stay safe.
    Thanks!

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    16
    I can honestly say I am pretty pessimistic person. I expect the worst, and get the worst. But even I have a hard time beleiving that if I use deadily force correctly I will be put in prison and or sued. Many years ago when I went through school for Criminal Justice Law Enforcement, I remember hearing that after an officer is cleared and his or her use of deadily force was justified, they are then protected against a law suit by the suspects family. I'm almost certain this would extend to to someone who is not a law enforcement officer. Through school, as well as my career as a nuclear security officer, I'm extremely well versed in use of force. It's actually pretty clean cut. Weapon, intent, delivery system. All are met, use of force. Then do you have identification, acquisition, isolation. Justified. Then again there is the greater danger theory. Basically you don't need isolation if the you not acting would be more harmful then acting. Of course there is presence, dialogue, empty hand control, intermediate weapon, deadily force. A cop may use one level of force above what is being used against them. Not sure about citizens. Then again I'm guessing I wasted my breath here, I'm sure you're all as well versed as the next guy about the use of force.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ellsworth Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,125
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy1791 View Post
    I can honestly say I am pretty pessimistic person. I expect the worst, and get the worst. But even I have a hard time beleiving that if I use deadily force correctly I will be put in prison and or sued. Many years ago when I went through school for Criminal Justice Law Enforcement, I remember hearing that after an officer is cleared and his or her use of deadily force was justified, they are then protected against a law suit by the suspects family. I'm almost certain this would extend to to someone who is not a law enforcement officer. Through school, as well as my career as a nuclear security officer, I'm extremely well versed in use of force. It's actually pretty clean cut. Weapon, intent, delivery system. All are met, use of force. Then do you have identification, acquisition, isolation. Justified. Then again there is the greater danger theory. Basically you don't need isolation if the you not acting would be more harmful then acting. Of course there is presence, dialogue, empty hand control, intermediate weapon, deadily force. A cop may use one level of force above what is being used against them. Not sure about citizens. Then again I'm guessing I wasted my breath here, I'm sure you're all as well versed as the next guy about the use of force.
    Thanks for the insight. Yes we are taught when deadly force is necessary. You have way more experience that most of us here. USCCA, with whom I am insured if I use deadly force provides excellent information how to avoid conflict in their magazine I receive and via E mail. They also include how to fortify your home against criminals etc...
    My concern arises from the fact that there are those in the legal system that are zealous to disarm a citizen even if they have legally used force, by turning the tables around. I had doped for honest prosecutes and judges who are non agenda driven. How do we know that the county judge we elected is also wearing a blindfold like lady justice??? That's why I believe that a citizen needs something to back them up, like me joining USCCA. My hope is that I never have to use deadly force, but these days I don't know...

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Thanks for the insight. Yes we are taught when deadly force is necessary. You have way more experience that most of us here. USCCA, with whom I am insured if I use deadly force provides excellent information how to avoid conflict in their magazine I receive and via E mail. They also include how to fortify your home against criminals etc...
    My concern arises from the fact that there are those in the legal system that are zealous to disarm a citizen even if they have legally used force, by turning the tables around. I had doped for honest prosecutes and judges who are non agenda driven. How do we know that the county judge we elected is also wearing a blindfold like lady justice??? That's why I believe that a citizen needs something to back them up, like me joining USCCA. My hope is that I never have to use deadly force, but these days I don't know...
    I agree. These days I don't feel safe in a movie theatre without my gun. I conceal it as much as possible while walking in. But walking out I don't care. Just because the events with the nut jobs shooting up a theatre. Don't want someone to think that's my intention, even though my intention is protection. I'd be pretty upset if I used deadily force and saved someone's life doing so, then get sued. Would I throw my life away to save a strangers, well. Hard to answer. Would I throw mine away to protect a loved one? Better believe it. So what you're saying is, the likely hood of me seeing harsh ramifications of justifiably using deadily force while out in the general public is pretty high? If so, damn. We do live in a Liberal society.
    Last edited by Jimmy1791; 08-07-2015 at 06:36 AM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,450
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy1791 View Post
    I can honestly say I am pretty pessimistic person. I expect the worst, and get the worst. But even I have a hard time beleiving that if I use deadily force correctly I will be put in prison and or sued. Many years ago when I went through school for Criminal Justice Law Enforcement, I remember hearing that after an officer is cleared and his or her use of deadily force was justified, they are then protected against a law suit by the suspects family. I'm almost certain this would extend to to someone who is not a law enforcement officer.
    There are less than a handful of states where non-LEOs are immunized by law against civil suit after being found not guilty in a criminal trial related to shooting someone in self defense.

    Through school, as well as my career as a nuclear security officer, I'm extremely well versed in use of force. It's actually pretty clean cut. Weapon, intent, delivery system. All are met, use of force. Then do you have identification, acquisition, isolation. Justified. Then again there is the greater danger theory. Basically you don't need isolation if the you not acting would be more harmful then acting.
    Cut and dried bureaucratic rules work well for bureaucracies backed by the power of the government, including the prosecutor. It does not work quite so predictably for us non-governmental types which is why there is so much discussion of not only statute law but case law. The former tells how things should be and the latter tells how things really are. And if you compare the two you should (to coin a term) "be afraid, be very afraid".

    Of course there is presence, dialogue, empty hand control, intermediate weapon, deadily force. A cop may use one level of force above what is being used against them. Not sure about citizens.
    Most of us do not wear bat-belts with all sorts of force options hanging off them. "Presence" is a pretty iffy thing with us mere mortals as we know the handgun is not a magic talisman that will make someone else reconsider their current behavior, while the uniform carries an aspect of authority that is fairly universally recognized. "Dialogue" is usually considered one of those things that are done before the rodeo gets under way. Again for most of us mere mortals that means trying to disengage rather than get someone to submit to authority. "Empty hand control" is great for folks who are 57th degree red belt ninjas in excellent condition and who regularly train. It also works better when the other guy also has empty hands. And most of the folks here (as opposed to the rest of the people "out there") know that hands and feet can be deadly weapons that we want to stay far away from. "Intermediate weapons" may be in fact illegal for us mere mortals to carry. In some states more illegal than in others.

    Then again I'm guessing I wasted my breath here, I'm sure you're all as well versed as the next guy about the use of force.
    No, you are not wasting your breath at all. And not all that hang out here as versed in the law at all, or are versed in some perversion that was told to them by someone else or that came about because they misunderstood what they were told.

    Dialogues like this are good if for no other reason than they remind us of how very narrow and shallow the window is that excuses or justifies the use of deadly force.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,450
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy1791 View Post
    I agree. These days I don't feel safe in a movie theatre without my gun. I conceal it as much as possible while walking in. But walking out I don't care. Just because the events with the nut jobs shooting up a theatre. Don't want someone to think that's my intention, even though my intention is protection.
    Remember that at OCDO we advocate for the law-abiding only: "Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts." (rule 15) That includes respecting and obeying "No Guns Allowed" signs even if it means not going out to the movies any more. Or to the mall. Or to that otherwise really nice restaurant. Yes, it often sucks to stand up for what you believe in.

    I'd be pretty upset if I used deadily force and saved someone's life doing so, then get sued. Would I throw my life away to save a strangers, well. Hard to answer. Would I throw mine away to protect a loved one? Better believe it. So what you're saying is, the likely hood of me seeing harsh ramifications of justifiably using deadily force while out in the general public is pretty high? If so, damn. We do live in a Liberal society.
    See my previous post on what can happen after you use your handgun.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  12. #12
    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    ADA County, ID
    Posts
    609
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy1791 View Post
    I agree. These days I don't feel safe in a movie theatre without my gun. I conceal it as much as possible while walking in. But walking out I don't care. Just because the events with the nut jobs shooting up a theatre. Don't want someone to think that's my intention, even though my intention is protection. I'd be pretty upset if I used deadily force and saved someone's life doing so, then get sued. Would I throw my life away to save a strangers, well. Hard to answer. Would I throw mine away to protect a loved one? Better believe it. So what you're saying is, the likely hood of me seeing harsh ramifications of justifiably using deadily force while out in the general public is pretty high? If so, damn. We do live in a Liberal society.
    I see you are in one of those goofy states that give gun buster signs the force of law, that's what you need to change in Wisconsin. Gun buster signs here in Idaho at a private business have no force of law so when it is encountered, all it really means is conceal your pistol when entering. I have yet to see one here though.
    Last edited by OC Freedom; 08-07-2015 at 08:34 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Freedom View Post
    I see you are in one of those goofy states that give gun buster signs the force of law, that's what you need to change in Wisconsin. Gun buster signs here in Idaho at a private business have no force of law so when it is encountered, all it really means is conceal your pistol when entering. I have yet to see one here though.
    Yeah. The sign is law. Fear the sign. Sign, sign everywhere are signs. On our local Marcus theatre they don't have the signs up which makes me happy. The day they put it up just might be the day I stop going. Biggest thing that scares me about theaters are the exits are past the shooter. Design flaw. I hate stores that have the no weapons signs. But like them at the same time. If I get hurt unable to adequately defend myself in their store just might be a pay day. Or a waste of time and energy. I'll take that risk.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,546
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy1791 View Post
    Yeah. The sign is law. Fear the sign. Sign, sign everywhere are signs. On our local Marcus theatre they don't have the signs up which makes me happy. The day they put it up just might be the day I stop going. Biggest thing that scares me about theaters are the exits are past the shooter. Design flaw. I hate stores that have the no weapons signs. But like them at the same time. If I get hurt unable to adequately defend myself in their store just might be a pay day. Or a waste of time and energy. I'll take that risk.
    Most theaters have exits at all four corners.

    Good luck on that "pay day" suit - seriously.
    Better to not open your mouth and be thought the fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Most theaters have exits at all four corners.

    Good luck on that "pay day" suit - seriously.
    No where under the immunity section does it say buisness that prohibits guns are immune. It only says does NOT prohibit. so in my understanding a buisness should be liable for my safety if they are taking away the means of me to do so.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    745
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy1791 View Post
    Yeah. The sign is law. Fear the sign.
    You guys understand that in Wisconsin violating a no guns sign on private property is only a state forfeiture or local ordinance violation, right? Those are not crimes (i.e., misdemeanors or felonies). While the fine can be as high as 1K you can not be sent to jail over it, it is not a criminal conviction, your CCL won't be revoked. Comparatively it is less serious to your life than a speeding ticket as it won't raise your insurance or put your license in jeopardy.

    I'm not encouraging anyone to break the law but if you keep well enough concealed how would anyone know? If you had to use it to save your life would you really care about a fine? Better yet, stay out of places like that and let them know why they aren't getting your hard earned money.


    I am not a lawyer, none of the above is legal advice!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •