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Thread: McAwful wants to make "Are you a U.S. citizen" check box optional when registering

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    McAwful wants to make "Are you a U.S. citizen" check box optional when registering

    Say, why don't we propose making check boxes on 4473 applications optional!

    How Virginia Is Making It Easier for Felons and Non-Citizens to Vote
    Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe and his appointees to the Virginia State Board of Elections seem determined to ensure that felons and non-citizens can illegally register and vote in elections without getting caught.

    ...

    Under current law, in order to register in Virginia, one must check boxes to answer questions about citizenship, felony convictions and mental capacity to vote. Under the proposed changes, leaving these boxes blank would not prevent an individual from becoming registered to vote.
    So, what's the rationale offered for doing this? Simply, put, it's confusing, and making people fill out those pesky check boxes, when so many people "forget" is just unfair:
    According to the Washington Post, the chairman of the Board of Elections, James Alcorn, said that these proposed changes will “make it easier for eligible Virginians to participate in the electoral process,” and that the focus of voter registration should not be “whether the voter is able to complete the form,” implying that these questions are so confusing that they are somehow disenfranchising eligible voters.
    Senate Candidate Amanda Chase is quite alarmed by this; she objected at a meeting held in a hotel in Chesterfield. so did the Chesterfield Registrar:

    Boxed out? GOP bucks changes to voter forms
    Falsely signing a voter registration form would remain a felony. But failing to answer the citizenship, felon and mental health questions would no longer be considered a “material omission” that under Virginia law automatically requires a registrar to reject an application.

    “The real threat to the integrity of our elections is politicians who throw up more barriers to voting,” said Anna Scholl, executive director of ProgressVA, a progressive advocacy organization based in Albemarle County. “It’s disgusting any politician would throw around wild and unfounded accusations to hide their true motivation: opposition to any proposal to make it easier for every eligible Virginia voter to cast a ballot.”

    Republican politicians aren’t the only people who oppose changing the voter registration form, though.

    A steady stream of registrars from across Virginia spoke during last week’s public hearing. Not one endorsed the proposed changes. Several pointed out that the changes would place the form in direct conflict with state law and make it far more difficult for them to determine whether an applicant is actually eligible to vote.

    Chesterfield Registrar Larry Haake drew loud applause from the crowd of about 250 people when he noted that allowing prospective voters to avoid filling out the form completely would “prevent me from doing my duty.”

    “When you look at the law regarding whether they are a citizen, as registrar of voters, we need an affirmative statement from the voter,” he said.
    Senator Tom Garrett draws the obvious parallels:
    If checking boxes to indicate that you’re an American citizen, haven’t been adjudicated mentally incapacitated, and aren’t a convicted felon is too hard to do to exercise a constitutional right, why don’t we just take those things off applications to purchase a firearm, too?

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    While the whole thing is political, don't get swept into McAuliffe's attempt to trick his own base, Repeater.

    I caught just a blurb last night on news radio. McAuliffe was quoted as pointing out that on another part of the form, the registrant is required to attest that he is qualified to vote, (or not disqualified to vote, I forget) or some such.

    If that is true, McAuliffe is trying to pander to his own base by giving them something worthless--elimination of checkboxes.

    ETA: Oh ho! There is no such statement on the form:

    http://elections.virginia.gov/Files/...pplication.pdf


    EETA: (sigh) I see on the form where you have to be a citizen of the US, but merely a resident of VA--not a citizen of Virginia. So much for a national government that is a servant to the states that created it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-10-2015 at 08:46 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Pretty sure state resident = state citizen, as long as you are legally a US citizen. Note the lack of passports needed to move from state to state.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Pretty sure state resident = state citizen, as long as you are legally a US citizen. Note the lack of passports needed to move from state to state.
    I know.

    My disappointment is more to why the application puts US citizenship above state citizenship. The application does not ask, "Are you both a US citizen and a citizen of VA?"
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-12-2015 at 12:31 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Felons most definitely should be able to vote. If they've served their time it makes no sense depriving them of their rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Pretty sure state resident = state citizen, as long as you are legally a US citizen. Note the lack of passports needed to move from state to state.
    Yet. Consider TSA Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response team, sometimes Visible Intermodal Protection and Response (VIPR, or VIPER). Also the 100 mile 'Constitution Free Zone'.

    I carry my Passport Card, while my DL resides with auto registration and insurance certificate.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Felons most definitely should be able to vote. If they've served their time it makes no sense depriving them of their rights.
    Have you researched the history of a) why they lose, among other things, their franchise and b) the arguments it took (in places where it has been done) to restore voting rights to them while not restoring other rights?

    If they have served their time and want their rights restored why are they not buttonholing members of the General Assembly to make that happen? Who is doing all that lobbying "on their behalf" and what drives those folks to do that?

    Are you buttonholing members of the General Assembly to make that happen?

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Have you researched the history of a) why they lose, among other things, their franchise and b) the arguments it took (in places where it has been done) to restore voting rights to them while not restoring other rights?

    If they have served their time and want their rights restored why are they not buttonholing members of the General Assembly to make that happen? Who is doing all that lobbying "on their behalf" and what drives those folks to do that?

    Are you buttonholing members of the General Assembly to make that happen?

    stay safe.
    Today there's no reason why a felon should lose their civil rights, including both their right to keep and bear arms and right to vote. If they've served their time, then their debt to society should be paid. If not, then don't let them out and give them the death penalty. It's preposterous to deprive people of their rights and set them free into society, it will mean they can never move on with their lives, change and be considered an equal.

    I also believe that many of the felony crimes we have today, should not be felonies at all, particularly when there is no victim.

    I also think it is somewhat absurd to think that change will occur by buttonholing members of the legislature because felons aren't able to vote for them anyway. That's like saying a slave should ask for their freedom and keep asking until they get it.

    The US is the only civilized nation that I have lived in that deprives people of their rights AFTER they've served their time in a correctional facility.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Today there's no reason why a felon should lose their civil rights, including both their right to keep and bear arms and right to vote. If they've served their time, then their debt to society should be paid. If not, then don't let them out and give them the death penalty. It's preposterous to deprive people of their rights and set them free into society, it will mean they can never move on with their lives, change and be considered an equal.

    I also believe that many of the felony crimes we have today, should not be felonies at all, particularly when there is no victim.

    I also think it is somewhat absurd to think that change will occur by buttonholing members of the legislature because felons aren't able to vote for them anyway. That's like saying a slave should ask for their freedom and keep asking until they get it.

    The US is the only civilized nation that I have lived in that deprives people of their rights AFTER they've served their time in a correctional facility.
    So then how would you suggest that a change be made if not through the legislature?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Today there's no reason why a felon should lose their civil rights1, including both their right to keep and bear arms and right to vote. If they've served their time, then their debt to society should be paid. If not, then don't let them out and give them the death penalty. It's preposterous to deprive people of their rights and set them free into society, it will mean they can never move on with their lives, change and be considered an equal.

    I also believe that many of the felony crimes we have today, should not be felonies at all, particularly when there is no victim.

    I also think it is somewhat absurd to think that change will occur by buttonholing members of the legislature because felons aren't able to vote for them anyway. That's like saying a slave should ask for their freedom and keep asking until they get it.2

    The US is the only civilized nation that I have lived in that deprives people of their rights AFTER they've served their time in a correctional facility.
    1 - so then the answer is "No, I did not research why felons were deprived of their civil rights and why some places still don't want to restore those rights after incarceration."

    Which means you are operating on FEELZ.

    2 - Oh dear sweet fluffy bouncing Shiva on a trampoline eating a soup sandwich.

    No, I am not going to mention any of the changes that came about by doing exactly that. Well, I might be tempted to mention the relaxing of the mental health laws that allowed most previously "crazy" folks committed for their lifetime to mental hospitals to be let back out into the community. Which is also why any more so many "crazy" people cannot be committed. [/extremely dry sense of humor]

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Lafayette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    So then how would you suggest that a change be made if not through the legislature?
    Oh it has to be done through the legislature.

    It's ridiculous to think that the way that this will occur is through felons petitioning.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Oh it has to be done through the legislature.

    It's ridiculous to think that the way that this will occur is through felons petitioning.
    About as ridiculous as expecting them [bad word avoided] to -----.

    No, I said I was not going to mention any of those examples. Gotta have some scruples, you know.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    maybe the carpetbagger's right - perhaps we should eliminate that check and require that all persons wishing to vote in the Commonwealth produce proof at the polling station that their grandfathers were eligible to vote here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    maybe the carpetbagger's right - perhaps we should eliminate that check and require that all persons wishing to vote in the Commonwealth produce proof at the polling station that their grandfathers were eligible to vote here.
    Why stop at grandfathers? Why not require proof that their grandfathers' grandfathers were qualified to vote? If one can require proof the grandfather was qualified to vote, one can require the grandfathers' grandfathers were qualified to vote. Where does it end?

    That last was a sneaky question. When you run it to ground--work backward through the premises--you arrive in the vicinity of:

    "The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, seems never to have been started either on this or our side of the water. Yet it is a question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also, among the fundamental principles of every government...What is true of every member of the society individually, is true of them all collectively, since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals..." Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, Sept. 6, 1789.

    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found.../v1ch2s23.html
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-22-2015 at 10:01 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post

    "The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, ....
    We've been through this discussion before but I have never received an answer as to how a society moves forward if the wheel has to be reinvented each generation.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    If society must be reinvented, then education has failed, and society regresses. ▮ The metaphor of a wheel is in apt.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    We've been through this discussion before but I have never received an answer as to how a society moves forward if the wheel has to be reinvented each generation.

    stay safe.
    So, society only moves forward because of government?

    Alternatively, by "moves forward" you mean the steady diminishment of freedom that's been going on in America under the federal government since administration of George Washington?

    Actually, your question contains a false premise--that government moves a society forward.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    So, society only moves forward because of government?

    Alternatively, by "moves forward" you mean the steady diminishment of freedom that's been going on in America under the federal government since administration of George Washington?

    Actually, your question contains a false premise--that government moves a society forward.
    +1
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    Moving Forward

    After reading through 3 page of comments it seems to me that election rules are fairly simple.
    To be eligible to vote, you need to be, a US citizen , a state resident, a non felon or have your rights
    restored by a court and not mentally impaired.
    Now these 4 requirements are clear and easy to understand ,and reasonable.
    I think anyone who doesn't meet the requirements is not eligible, thus has no right to vote. Simple!
    Only one question left,why would want someone who is not a US citizen ,or someone from out of state,
    or a convicted felon , or a mentally impaired to be able to negate your vote.

    ............................ Jack
    Last edited by Spooler41; 08-23-2015 at 06:53 PM.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    So, ....
    yes - so?

    As in, so where do you find that non-citizens have the right to vote?

    Not political/philosophical discourse, but the enumerated right. Or is this another "evolving interpretation"?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    yes - so?

    As in, so where do you find that non-citizens have the right to vote?

    Not political/philosophical discourse, but the enumerated right. Or is this another "evolving interpretation"?

    stay safe.
    As so. Ah so. Half az so.

    Some people only accept "interpretations" that favor their view - that's McAwful.

    Think that only the guilty will object.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    yes - so? As in, so where do you find that non-citizens have the right to vote? Not political/philosophical discourse, but the enumerated right. Or is this another "evolving interpretation"?
    Where do you find any right to vote? Not in COTUS or BoR or any of several states' constitutions.

    ETA: Nor, indeed, in natural law.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-24-2015 at 08:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Where do you find any right to vote? Not in COTUS or BoR or any of several states' constitutions.

    ETA: Nor, indeed, in natural law.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxix

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
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    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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