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Thread: Man dies after altercation with security guard at VCU Medical Center

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Man dies after altercation with security guard at VCU Medical Center

    Man dies after altercation with security guard at VCU Medical Center

    Virginia Commonwealth University issued a statement which read, "There was an incident Friday afternoon between a patient and a contract security guard in our outpatient pharmacy. The patient died yesterday as a result of the injuries.

    A spokesperson at VCU added that the security guard is no longer working at the university, but could not say if he is still employed by the contracting company.

    Police say charges against the security guard are expected.

    http://www.nbc12.com/story/29752357/...medical-center
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It's upsetting but not surprising.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    IMHO - the VCU/MCV security staff is less than professional, poorly trained and barely supervised.

    Chief John Venuti is going to have to deal with this.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    What's the difference between this death and any other death? I'm not seeing why this was posted. Is there some interest in VCU for VA OCers?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    What's the difference between this death and any other death? I'm not seeing why this was posted. Is there some interest in VCU for VA OCers?
    Most definitely so on both campuses and Monroe Park.

    VCU/MCV is prone to bend the rules and create policy out of thin air.

    OC is legal outside of the buildings, on the grounds, and on the public right-of-ways, but not inside the buildings. So too are other things: smoking, passing out GSL stickers, and just resting.

    Too frequently the sworn officers and private security will go one bridge too far in responding to a perceived situation. Even been told that the campus property was private property and that I should walk on the other side of the street......which was still "on campus."

    PVC, Peter Nap, Skidmark and I have all had some experience with various aspects of this. Been enough interaction that I have Chief Venuti's private cell number on my phone.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Most definitely so on both campuses and Monroe Park.

    VCU/MCV is prone to bend the rules and create policy out of thin air.

    OC is legal outside of the buildings, on the grounds, and on the public right-of-ways, but not inside the buildings. So too are other things: smoking, passing out GSL stickers, and just resting.

    Too frequently the sworn officers and private security will go one bridge too far in responding to a perceived situation. Even been told that the campus property was private property and that I should walk on the other side of the street......which was still "on campus."

    PVC, Peter Nap, Skidmark and I have all had some experience with various aspects of this. Been enough interaction that I have Chief Venuti's private cell number on my phone.
    Thanks. I get it now.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMHO - the VCU/MCV security staff is less than professional, poorly trained and barely supervised.
    .
    Please note that there are a few different private security companies working there. I can assure you that "some" of the officers there are very well trained (if I do say so myself!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Please note that there are a few different private security companies working there. I can assure you that "some" of the officers there are very well trained (if I do say so myself!)
    Wasn't aware that more than one company was involved. Some of the personnel with whom I have contact were not wearing a uniform or any identification.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Wasn't aware that more than one company was involved. Some of the personnel with whom I have contact were not wearing a uniform or any identification.
    There are at least 2 companies working different areas at VCU/MCV.

    Uniforms will vary from company to company, but anyone in uniform should be easily identified by at least company name, patch or insignia, if I remember the Code correctly.

    Edited - just heard that the company involved was different than what I had first heard.
    Last edited by ProShooter; 08-11-2015 at 01:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    There are at least 2 companies working different areas at VCU/MCV.

    Uniforms will vary from company to company, but anyone in uniform should be easily identified by at least company name, patch or insignia, if I remember the Code correctly.

    Edited - just heard that the company involved was different than what I had first heard.
    I remember two in plain, street clothes, who literally ran away when a produced by cell phone camera.

    Guess they didn't want to be identified.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Some memorable quotes.

    You can't smoke on this sidewalk and if you go across the street, you'll be charged with stealing that iv plugged in your arm.

    You can't have that holster in here.

    The chief was good when threatened with a camera.
    We can't arrest you for smoking.

    My favorite personal experience. You can't leave to smoke....As they huddled togher after I left...what did he call you?

    Then there are the officers themselves. You can't film here, it's private property. I know it's a public school but it's private.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Some memorable quotes.

    You can't smoke on this sidewalk and if you go across the street, you'll be charged with stealing that iv plugged in your arm.

    You can't have that holster in here.

    The chief was good when threatened with a camera.
    We can't arrest you for smoking.

    My favorite personal experience. You can't leave to smoke....As they huddled togher after I left...what did he call you?

    Then there are the officers themselves. You can't film here, it's private property. I know it's a public school but it's private.
    These are quotes from PRIVATE security company employees? And they have arrest powers?
    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter348 View Post
    These are quotes from PRIVATE security company employees? And they have arrest powers?
    Both private and vcu police. The usual practise is they radio for a sworn officer. Yeah, everyone has arrest powers.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    There are at least 2 companies working different areas at VCU/MCV.

    Uniforms will vary from company to company, but anyone in uniform should be easily identified by at least company name, patch or insignia, if I remember the Code correctly.

    Edited - just heard that the company involved was different than what I had first heard.
    You know Jim, when they refuse to release information like the name of the individual or the name of the company, ALL security there goes into the same diaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You know Jim, when they refuse to release information like the name of the individual or the name of the company, ALL security there goes into the same diaper.
    They maintain that it is their sandbox and they are covering it up/burying it as fast as they can.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    They maintain that it is their sandbox and they are covering it up/burying it as fast as they can.
    Knowing Jim, I'm sure he's training properly. Obviousely not all companies are that concensus though. Not releasing information just makes them all look bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    They maintain that it is their sandbox and they are covering it up/burying it as fast as they can.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Knowing Jim, I'm sure he's training properly. Obviousely not all companies are that concensus though. Not releasing information just makes them all look bad.
    The initial training of the officers is not the problem. It is at the management level, daily supervision, were the breakdown occurs.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The initial training of the officers is not the problem. It is at the management level, daily supervision, were the breakdown occurs.
    That's very true Grape, but it starts with the individual. ..you can't make soup out of rocks, then the initial training. I was talking to one of the Securguard guards during Skids trial. Short, black kid who told me Skid was in the bosses reactionary zone. I asked what the hell a reactionary zone was and he said....you know, someone gets in your face...you got to react.

    That's initial training and initial training of someone too stupid to empty his boot after whizzing in it at that.
    Securguard had contracts with most of the state agencies until user lowered the boom...and that probably included MCV. No amount of management could make that sows ear into anything but a detached pigs ear.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You know Jim, when they refuse to release information like the name of the individual or the name of the company, ALL security there goes into the same diaper.
    Understood, but you can't blame all the companies when VCU refused to release the name of the offending company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Understood, but you can't blame all the companies when VCU refused to release the name of the offending company.
    I'm not blaming anyone Jim. My opinion of security guards is on the low side anyway and what I have seen at MCV have been especially bad so it's not blame, just business as usual. If they have a bad company tarnishing the rest they need to fess up to it and get rid of them

    That's true with everything. I constantly hear there are only a few bad dog hunters and you know my opinion about that.

    It's a matter of public trust. Right now I'd say MCV has a real problem in that department. No different than securiguard. It happens I've met and talked to the supervisor the clown in Skids case replaced. He's top notch and ran a tight ship. A few bad guards multiplied and gave VDOT a black eye as well as costing the company millions of dollars.

    I know your character and know you understand what I'm saying.
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-12-2015 at 11:51 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'm not blaming anyone Jim. My opinion of security guards is on the low side anyway and what I have seen at MCV have been especially bad so it's not blame, just business as usual. If they have a bad company tarnishing the rest they need to fess up to it and get rid of them

    That's true with everything. I constantly hear there are only a few bad dog hunters and you know my opinion about that.

    It's a matter of public trust. Right now I'd say MCV has a real problem in that department. No different than securiguard. It happens I've met and talked to the supervisor the clown in Skids case replaced. He's top notch and ran a tight ship. A few bad guards multiplied and gave VDOT a black eye as well as costing the company millions of dollars.

    I know your character and know you understand what I'm saying.
    I understand. I know its normal to paint with a broad brush here. I've seen some less than professional folks too. Sad, but it happens in any line of work.
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    Peter, Proshooter, you're both right…,

    Management has or should have a lot to do with it. When a security company has so many employees that management cannot have access or ability to devote time to regularly inspect, monitor, and update it's employees, they need to have on site supervisors close enough to do just that. Those supervisors need to be busy, constantly, actively observing and evaluating his or her charges for a number of things. This is much easier said than accomplished.

    I don't know how LEW & Associates is set up. Don't know their SOP's. Don't know VCU's SOP's. What I can say is this, I was ordered to attend a two day Unarmed Security Officer class, in accordance with Virginia DCJS (Department of Criminal Justice Services for those not familiar with the acronym) standards taught by Mr. Lloyd Woods. To his credit, Mr. Woods was very professional, covered the course material completely, and had in my opinion a complete understanding of the course and the ability to communicate the lesson plans properly, no subject was cut short, "glanced over", or diminished in any effort to "get out of class" early or take an extended "lunch".

    With that said, it is sometimes very hard to determine just when an employee may suddenly go off of plan, ignore training, and defy good common sense…, not always impossible though. This is where the strength of management plays its most important part. To observe and identify behavior that is inconsistent with training, SOP's, or good common sense, and to bring it to the attention of both the employee and the employer for corrective action, which can be handled in a number of different ways. As I said, hard, not easy, but also not impossible, and I believe that's where the strength (or weakness) of such a company can be found, in their willingness to be vigilant and effective in their duties. I would also like to say that the character of the company should start from the top down.

    I would also like to say that not all necessary training can be accomplished in a classroom. It is my opinion only that in order to become a professional Security Officer (not a Guard), one has to have training, but also a significant level of maturity and life experience and the ability to relate those types of lessons learned in order to follow training, observe SOP's, follow a safe course , and bring any situation to a peaceful, orderly, or favorable conclusion.

    While I agree that the sooner we have transparency of a situation, the better, I also understand the desire to investigate thoroughly before "stating" anything "absolutely". I generally subscribe to the "two week" rule. That being my personal observance that an outsider generally has to wait about two weeks to start getting a clear picture of most situations where speculation and inaccurate, or biased reporting have had their run.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    sidestreet

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    Last edited by sidestreet; 08-15-2015 at 06:34 PM. Reason: insert word

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Very well said Sidestreet.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Very well said Sidestreet.
    +2...
    Sidestreet also touched on something we've discussed often. The security officer vs the security guard. There is a big difference.
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-15-2015 at 10:05 PM.

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