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Thread: Michigan Open Carry Inc. wins right to carry in K-12 schools

  1. #1
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    Michigan Open Carry Inc. wins right to carry in K-12 schools

    http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/J...321341301.html

    SNIP

    Judge Rules "Open Carry" Law Trumps School-District Policies
    Posted: Mon 10:43 PM, Aug 10, 2015
    By: Associated Press

    Rules in favor of father who was denied entrance to his daughter

    A Genesee County judge has ruled a father can openly carry his pistol inside his daughter's elementary school.

    The Flint Journal reports Circuit Judge Archie Hayman on Monday ruled in favor of Kenneth Herman and gun rights advocacy group Michigan Open Carry. He filed a lawsuit in March against the Clio Area School District, arguing he was denied access to Edgerton Elementary multiple times while trying to pick up his daughter because he was openly carrying his pistol.

    State law allows people with concealed pistol licenses to openly carry their firearms in schools.

    . . .
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 08-11-2015 at 08:38 PM. Reason: fixed title to include "Open"

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    The district sought to have the lawsuit dismissed, citing its “fundamental misunderstanding” of Michigan law.
    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...hool/31451735/
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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Yeah, the right ruling was handed down, but its not going to matter much. They're still going to lock down the school and call the cops EVERY TIME. Wonder if thats grounds for a harassment lawsuit.

    http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde..._story_package

    Edit: this also means Ann Arbor is left without a leg to stand on in their case.
    Last edited by DeSchaine; 08-11-2015 at 05:20 PM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The legislature needs to put some teeth in the statute - make the individuals personally liable.
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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The legislature needs to put some teeth in the statute - make the individuals personally liable.
    Somehow, I doubt that well ever happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine
    They're still going to lock down the school and call the cops EVERY TIME.
    Wonder if thats grounds for a harassment lawsuit.
    I'd say so.
    And if I were the police chief, I'd start charging the school district for every false alarm.
    First charge money, then charge the caller (& everyone up the food chain who made or enforced the policy) with inciting to riot,
    disorderly conduct, abuse of the 911 system, etc.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-11-2015 at 11:45 PM.
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    Clio Area Schools To Appeal - Your Help Is Needed

    ***Clio To Appeal***

    Last night the Board for Clio Area Schools voted unanimously to continue wasting taxpayer money fighting a clear legal interpretation that everyone, even Clio, have said is correct.

    WE NEED YOUR HELP.
    Please donate today - www.miopencarry.org/donatelegal

    Unlike Clio, we do not have a base of taxpayers to take more money from. We rely solely on you, our supporters, to help us continue the fight.

    The Genesee County Circuit Court set precedent for Genesee County. A ruling from the Michigan Court of Appeals will set precedent for the ENTIRE STATE. You may not live in Clio, but this case will affect you.

    We will not back down and we will not allow Clio to get away with knowing and willing violations of a law that is meant to protect us gun owners and our rights, but it's going to take all of us to get it done.

    This next fight will not be cheap. We expect the price tag to easily reach $10,000 - 20,000. Please consider donating what you can now and perhaps more if you are able to later. Every donation, large or small is appreciated and will help us fight this lawless behavior. Also please consider a reoccurring donation. Even small donations every month are very helpful.

    Won't you please consider donating today - www.miopencarry.org/donatelegal

    From all of us at MOC, thank you for your continued support.
    Last edited by bigt8261; 08-12-2015 at 09:18 AM.

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    As President of Michigan Open Carry, Inc., I want everyone to know that I'm not leading this fight without skin in the game. Please join me in supporting this cause.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Just put in $100.00 as well! A very good cause indeed! We have got to prevail and funds are sorely needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Just put in $100.00 as well! A very good cause indeed! We have got to prevail and funds are sorely needed.
    Thank you sir!

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    HA! This gets better and better. Rockford schools fully intend to become the next subject of a lawsuit.

    http://woodtv.com/2015/08/11/judge-r...ied-in-school/

    In 2014, voters in Rockford approved a proposal that will put $11 million toward new security vestibules at each school entrance. Built with bullet-proof glass and equipped with cameras and speakers, all visitors — including those carrying guns — will have to check in before being let inside a building.

    “We’re going to ask that person, ‘Please leave the building and put the gun in the glove compartment of your car and then you can come back in,'” Shibler said.

    But wouldn’t that violate the law?

    “They’re in the building,” he said. “They’re in the vestibule. We’re not denying them access to the building, but we’re saying you’re not going to go any further than that.”
    Does he seriously think that will fly as an argument in court? That's STILL preventing the person from carrying while conducting their legitimate business inside the school. That is STILL making firearms policy more stringent than what the State allows. That is STILL a violation of the law. I hope the legal beagles for MOC bring up that little bit of BS in the appeal.
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    Open carry victory in Michigan

    Open Carry win in Michigan; public land rec. shooting in crosshairs

    Open Carry activists in Michigan and beyond are celebrating Monday’s ruling by a circuit judge that a Genesee County man can openly carry a sidearm into an elementary school to pick up his daughter, but yesterday’s Detroit Free Press said the school district may appeal the decision and also lobby state lawmakers to clarify the state’s carry law.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/open...ing-crosshairs

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    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    HA! This gets better and better. Rockford schools fully intend to become the next subject of a lawsuit.

    http://woodtv.com/2015/08/11/judge-r...ied-in-school/



    Does he seriously think that will fly as an argument in court? That's STILL preventing the person from carrying while conducting their legitimate business inside the school. That is STILL making firearms policy more stringent than what the State allows. That is STILL a violation of the law. I hope the legal beagles for MOC bring up that little bit of BS in the appeal.
    The article says nothing about metal detectors. How are they going to stop the criminals that walk in there carrying concealed firearms?
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  14. #14
    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Here in Kalamazoo, they don't, Al.
    http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...ix_bathro.html

    And just when you thought the issue couldn't get any better...

    http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...l#incart_river

    Clio Superintendent Fletcher Spears III said the board reached its decision after a closed-door discussion with the district's attorney and insurance carrier. All board members voted in favor of the appeal, except Vice-President Henry Hatter who was not at the meeting.
    -emphasis mine.

    Another case of political idiots ignoring their mandate as a PUBLIC school district.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Here in Kalamazoo, they don't, Al.
    http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...ix_bathro.html

    And just when you thought the issue couldn't get any better...

    http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...l#incart_river

    -emphasis mine.

    Another case of political idiots ignoring their mandate as a PUBLIC school district.
    Wife is a District Administrator in Wisconsin. Our laws are a little different than Michigan regarding guns in schools.

    The School Board can and does hold closed session meetings but it usually regards an employee salary negotiation or a job performance review. Generally they would come out of closed session and report on the decision, but not the specifics. I have no idea if this would be closed session material, but it sure doesn't seem like it. I don't think it is to be used for things that they just don't want to discuss in public. I know there are strict laws in WI about what can and can not be discussed in closed session as well as by 2 or more board members, say at lunch at Mc Donald's! It is part of the District Administrators job to make sure the Board doesn't do anything illegal, as well as to implement the Board's vision and decisions.

    I sure wish I only had to follow the laws that I liked and agreed with!

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    Wisconsin closely regulates exemptions to open meetings in Wisc. Stats. Chapter 19 General Duties of Public Officials, SUBCHAPTER V OPEN MEETINGS OF GOVERNMENTAL BODIES § 19.85 Exemptions

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/document/statutes/19.85
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    Sometime we get very caught-up in technology that we forget some of our Members do not particularly like sending monetary donations through the internet. For those who wish to help out the Michigan Open Carry, Inc. legal fund, you are more than welcome to send snail mail to the address below:

    Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
    P.O. Box 16184
    Lansing, MI 48901

    Thank you so much for your continued support as we prepare to take on Clio Public Schools in the Court of Appeals!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Here in Kalamazoo, they don't, Al.
    http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...ix_bathro.html

    And just when you thought the issue couldn't get any better...

    http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...l#incart_river

    -emphasis mine.

    Another case of political idiots ignoring their mandate as a PUBLIC school district.
    So let me get this right. They openly admitted to violating the Open Meetings Act?
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

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    Attorney - Client discussions are protected. They can be in private and are not FOIAable.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Actually the point is they made this decision with ZERO input from the tax paying and voting public. The same ones that elected them into their positions to be responsible individuals, able to make good decisions regarding the schools. Wasting the districts money on this does not constitute that.
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigt8261 View Post
    Attorney - Client discussions are protected. They can be in private and are not FOIAable.
    15.268 Closed sessions; permissible purposes.
    Sec. 8. A public body may meet in a closed session only for the following purposes:
    [ ... ]
    (e) To consult with its attorney regarding trial or settlement strategy in connection with specific pending
    litigation, but only if an open meeting would have a detrimental financial effect on the litigating or settlement
    position of the public body.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    https://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...en&as_sdt=4,23

    Looks like if common law is broader than the specific exemptions, then common law would prevail.

    Most states note in their statues that common law exemptions and other common law rights are still intact; I don't see that in MI OMA/FOIA but it is apparently so.

    So the question becomes: did the legislature just limit the common law attny-client exemption? In the linked case, it appears not but I think that the limiting of the common law exemption is much clearer in this instance and deals with a slightly different aspect of attny-client.
    And second question : if the plaintiff asked for $$ then would the exemption apply in this case, as written in the OMA, in any event?

    Glad the plaintiff won but I doubt he made the argument that he can carry in any manner he likes guns under his natural right to KBA which cannot be abolished by or regulated by any govt' law, rule, or policy.

    I would also have made it perfectly clear that the policy actually creates a more unsafe environment for the children (the plaintiff may have made this argument).

    But you can never admonish a guy who just won exactly what he wanted to get.

  23. #23
    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    Here's a question. Can you get in trouble in MI for misuse of the 911 system like in Conn.? I refer to this article posted in the Conn. forum. The bottom of the article got me wondering.

    Police then identified the caller as Joseph Gagne, a 52-year-old Stafford man who lives near Fiske Avenue, police said. They also determined that he was fully aware that the person inside of the car with a gun was an on-duty Connecticut State Trooper and that the car was a Connecticut State Police cruiser, police said.

    Police obtained an arrest warrant for Gagne, who turned himself in to police on Monday and was charged with falsely reporting an incident and misuse of emergency 911 system.
    http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/l...321753272.html

    SO! Knowing what and who Mr. Ken Herman is, AND knowing full well that he is a CPL holder, IF Clio calls the cops on him again, isnt that a misuse of the system? And if so, shouldnt the administration be held accountable under Michigan law?
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeSchaine View Post
    Here's a question. Can you get in trouble in MI for misuse of the 911 system like in Conn.? I refer to this article posted in the Conn. forum. The bottom of the article got me wondering.



    http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/l...321753272.html

    SO! Knowing what and who Mr. Ken Herman is, AND knowing full well that he is a CPL holder, IF Clio calls the cops on him again, isnt that a misuse of the system? And if so, shouldnt the administration be held accountable under Michigan law?
    They could be .. but don't hold your breath awaiting an arrest. --Mod edited-- A civil suit would be in order.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-14-2015 at 07:52 AM.

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