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Thread: Will this ruling help us here in wisconsin?

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    Will this ruling help us here in wisconsin?



    A Michigan dad won big time in court for OCing in a federal GFSZ when he went to pick up his daughter. Will this case now help us here in Wisconsin to enable law abiding citizens to carry into school grounds OC or CC?

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015...e-zone-school/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No. Michigan is in the Eighth Circuit, and Wisconsin is in the Seventh Circuit, US Court of Appeals. I believe that it will have to go to SCOTUS to achieve jurisdiction over Wisconsin.
    I understand that any major federal ruling on a constitutional issue or otherwise becomes a precedence/case law that affect other states.

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    The other courts and districts can reference it or even base a decision on it or they can ignore it completely!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 08-12-2015 at 04:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    The other courts and districts can reference it or even base a decision on it or they can ignore it completely!
    Does that normally happen? I hope that we (WI Carry etc...) can use this decision to bolster our case for carry on school grounds.

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    Oh my god we can't have guns on school property guys! Guns are dangerous! Says every liberal out there. I'm glad that guy won. Good for him and his state. Stuff like this with huge media coverage would spark a ton of debates. We could only hope we can carry on school grounds. Because a sign that says "all teachers are armed and any hostility towards children will be met with deadily force" would be a great crime deterrent.

    On a side note everytime I wrote deadily, my phone likes to change it to readily. My phone phone may be a pacifist.
    Last edited by Jimmy1791; 08-14-2015 at 12:09 AM.

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    Perhaps your phone knows deadily is not relevant as it does not appear in the dictionary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Perhaps your phone knows deadily is not relevant as it does not appear in the dictionary.
    Off topic and irrelevant to the OP. This could be a deadly game to play.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post

    A Michigan dad won big time in court for OCing in a federal GFSZ when he went to pick up his daughter. Will this case now help us here in Wisconsin to enable law abiding citizens to carry into school grounds OC or CC?

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015...e-zone-school/
    This is a state court decision, not Federal.

    Federal GFSZ already allows you to open or conceal on school grounds as long as you have a CCL from the state where the school is located. In this case, Michigan had some weirdly written laws that only allowed OC on school grounds, as affirmed by this judge.

    Wisconsin could allow open and conceal carry inside of schools anytime they want.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    This is a state court decision, not Federal.

    Federal GFSZ already allows you to open or conceal on school grounds as long as you have a CCL from the state where the school is located. In this case, Michigan had some weirdly written laws that only allowed OC on school grounds, as affirmed by this judge.

    Wisconsin could allow open and conceal carry inside of schools anytime they want.
    The Fed GFSZ law does NOT allow nor disallow guns on school grounds nor in the buildings!
    This is Totally a matter of State law.

    The Fed GFSZ law Only controls the 1000ft zone around the school property,, In every State!
    The license/permit to CC in the State where the school is located
    is Required just to get to the school property,,, In every State!
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    The Fed GFSZ law does NOT allow nor disallow guns on school grounds nor in the buildings!
    This is Totally a matter of State law.

    The Fed GFSZ law Only controls the 1000ft zone around the school property,, In every State!
    The license/permit to CC in the State where the school is located
    is Required just to get to the school property,,, In every State!
    Well, no ****. Laws usually preclude stuff.

    My point is that it isn't the Federal GFSZ law that is making people felons on school grounds if they have a CCL. It's the state.

    My other point is that this is a Michigan case about the Michigan law and therefore has no bearing on Wisconsin.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 08-14-2015 at 03:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    This is a state court decision, not Federal.

    Federal GFSZ already allows you to open or conceal on school grounds as long as you have a CCL from the state where the school is located. In this case, Michigan had some weirdly written laws that only allowed OC on school grounds, as affirmed by this judge.

    Wisconsin could allow open and conceal carry inside of schools anytime they want.
    Is the federal GFSZ a thousand foot rule? I thought it was a felony to carry inside school grounds. But you seem to be saying we can carry inside school grounds but not inside the building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Is the federal GFSZ a thousand foot rule? I thought it was a felony to carry inside school grounds. But you seem to be saying we can carry inside school grounds but not inside the building.
    As Paul stated earlier, MI law does not prohibit the carry of firearms opening inside of schools. WI still does prohibit this.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    As Paul stated earlier, MI law does not prohibit the carry of firearms opening inside of schools. WI still does prohibit this.
    Yep got it. As I thought. Hope this changes for us. What a dumb restriction.

    A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    The Fed GFSZ law does NOT allow nor disallow guns on school grounds nor in the buildings!
    This is Totally a matter of State law.

    The Fed GFSZ law Only controls the 1000ft zone around the school property,, In every State!
    The license/permit to CC in the State where the school is located
    is Required just to get to the school property,,, In every State!
    Ummm....no. Wrongo MaryLou!

    The definition of school zone (and school) as defined in 18 USC 921(a):

    (25) The term “school zone” means—
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
    (26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
    Notwithstanding the unconstitutional nature of the law.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 08-18-2015 at 06:42 PM.

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    Just a few things

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No. Michigan is in the Eighth Circuit, and Wisconsin is in the Seventh Circuit, US Court of Appeals. I believe that it will have to go to SCOTUS to achieve jurisdiction over Wisconsin.

    Michigan is in the 6th Circuit. Decisions from other circuits have persuasive not mandatory authority in other circuits. If you mean that only SCOTUS can make an out of circuit decision binding in Wisconsin, you are correct.

    This was a state case, not federal. The term circuit refers to the state trial court of general jurisdiction. This case could migrate to the federal system but it ain't there yet.

    Others have addressed the impact of the federal GFSZ statute. Pays to have a permit.

    Well there still seems to be a dispute. Think of it this way. You have to jump through two hoops to carry in a school zone. Federal and State. The federal hoop says no carry in the zone (school property + 1000 feet) unless you have a permit from the state of interest. It doesn't matter if you are a nonresident if the state issues NR permits. You cannot use an OOSL to carry in a SZ, even if the state says you can. The state hoop - some states like WI took this beautiful federal exception and rendered it meaningless to a great degree by imposing a school property restriction to carry. So in Wisconsin, permit holders are ok in the buffer zone but not on the property. Other states vary. Neither MI nor WI issues nonresident permits so only residents may take advantage of whatever lessened restrictions there are.
    Last edited by apjonas; 08-23-2015 at 01:55 AM. Reason: clarify

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    Not Quite

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    The Fed GFSZ law does NOT allow nor disallow guns on school grounds nor in the buildings!
    This is Totally a matter of State law.

    The Fed GFSZ law Only controls the 1000ft zone around the school property,, In every State!
    The license/permit to CC in the State where the school is located
    is Required just to get to the school property,,, In every State!
    Incorrect. Federal law sez

    The term "school zone" means—

    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or

    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.


    The permit provides an exception to this prohibition. You also have to meet the requirements of state law which may or may not be in synch with the federal law.

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    Sorry for poaching on your answer

    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Ummm....no. Wrongo MaryLou!

    The definition of school zone (and school) as defined in 18 USC 921(a):





    Notwithstanding the unconstitutional nature of the law.


    Tired and didn't see it.

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    Almost

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Yep got it. As I thought. Hope this changes for us. What a dumb restriction.

    A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    Such carry would be permitted under WI law but would still be illegal under federal law. Despite a good attempt, WI cannot tell the feds which permits qualify.

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    Not Completely

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    This is a state court decision, not Federal.

    Federal GFSZ already allows you to open or conceal on school grounds as long as you have a CCL from the state where the school is located. In this case, Michigan had some weirdly written laws that only allowed OC on school grounds, as affirmed by this judge.

    Wisconsin could allow open and conceal carry inside of schools anytime they want.
    By removing the state restriction, permit holders could carry on school grounds. Only WI residents that is because an OOSL does not meet the feds standards and WI does not issue to non-residents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    I understand that any major federal ruling on a constitutional issue or otherwise becomes a precedence/case law that affect other states.

    If the other state is in the same circuit but it also depends on the who made the decision - a panel or full court.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    By removing the state restriction, permit holders could carry on school grounds. Only WI residents that is because an OOSL does not meet the feds standards and WI does not issue to non-residents.
    While we are picking nits, since that is what laws are about, Wisconsin, like other states, has added language in their licensing statutes that says that for Federal purposes, OOSL are WI licenses.

    Those provisions have not been tested in Federal court as of yer so we don't know if they will stop an out of stater from becoming a Federal felon.

    175.69(2)(d) "For purposes of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii), an out-of-state licensee is licensed by this state."

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Such carry would be permitted under WI law but would still be illegal under federal law. Despite a good attempt, WI cannot tell the feds which permits qualify.
    Isn't the way the federal law is written interfere with the operation of the privileges and immunities clause. So states do not have the powers to enter into reciprocal agreements for school zone carry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    While we are picking nits, since that is what laws are about, Wisconsin, like other states, has added language in their licensing statutes that says that for Federal purposes, OOSL are WI licenses.

    Those provisions have not been tested in Federal court as of yer so we don't know if they will stop an out of stater from becoming a Federal felon.

    175.69(2)(d) "For purposes of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii), an out-of-state licensee is licensed by this state."
    It would be interesting if a federal court ruled that a states issuance of license by statute is not valid because it it's not a paper document issued by the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    It would be interesting if a federal court ruled that a states issuance of license by statute is not valid because it it's not a paper document issued by the state.
    I just wish congress would pass US carry laws so we don't get into these state to state complexities and reciprocities and a whole lot in between. This could force states like NJ etc... to comply to the US constitution meaning and interpretation aka right to keep and BEAR arms. 2A in the US constitution and we are US citizens first and also citizens of respective states second. Where is this precedence being applied in this area: BEAR?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    I just wish congress would pass US carry laws so we don't get into these state to state complexities and reciprocities and a whole lot in between.
    Be careful what you wish for. Putting the Fed in charge of passing carry laws might not be the utopia you think it would be.

    To wit:

    Is there a federal program that is run well? There might be, but I certainly can't think of one.

    In a "one size fits all" approach, do you think the fed will adopt the requirements of the LEAST restrictive states or the MOST restrictive states? Personally, I don't want licensing requirements similar to those of Illinois becoming the National standard.

    The only National "carry law" we should need and that would acceptable would be National Constitutional Carry. I'm not holding my breath on that.

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