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Will this ruling help us here in wisconsin?

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
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May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
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Chandler, AZ
By removing the state restriction, permit holders could carry on school grounds. Only WI residents that is because an OOSL does not meet the feds standards and WI does not issue to non-residents.

While we are picking nits, since that is what laws are about, Wisconsin, like other states, has added language in their licensing statutes that says that for Federal purposes, OOSL are WI licenses.

Those provisions have not been tested in Federal court as of yer so we don't know if they will stop an out of stater from becoming a Federal felon.

175.69(2)(d) "For purposes of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii), an out-of-state licensee is licensed by this state."
 

lockman

State Researcher
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
1,193
Location
Elgin, Illinois, USA
Such carry would be permitted under WI law but would still be illegal under federal law. Despite a good attempt, WI cannot tell the feds which permits qualify.

Isn't the way the federal law is written interfere with the operation of the privileges and immunities clause. So states do not have the powers to enter into reciprocal agreements for school zone carry?
 

lockman

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Location
Elgin, Illinois, USA
While we are picking nits, since that is what laws are about, Wisconsin, like other states, has added language in their licensing statutes that says that for Federal purposes, OOSL are WI licenses.

Those provisions have not been tested in Federal court as of yer so we don't know if they will stop an out of stater from becoming a Federal felon.

175.69(2)(d) "For purposes of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii), an out-of-state licensee is licensed by this state."

It would be interesting if a federal court ruled that a states issuance of license by statute is not valid because it it's not a paper document issued by the state.
 

Law abider

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Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
1,164
Location
Ellsworth Wisconsin
It would be interesting if a federal court ruled that a states issuance of license by statute is not valid because it it's not a paper document issued by the state.

I just wish congress would pass US carry laws so we don't get into these state to state complexities and reciprocities and a whole lot in between. This could force states like NJ etc... to comply to the US constitution meaning and interpretation aka right to keep and BEAR arms. 2A in the US constitution and we are US citizens first and also citizens of respective states second. Where is this precedence being applied in this area: BEAR? :question:
 

NoTolerance

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Mar 11, 2012
Messages
292
Location
Milwaukee, WI
I just wish congress would pass US carry laws so we don't get into these state to state complexities and reciprocities and a whole lot in between.

Be careful what you wish for. Putting the Fed in charge of passing carry laws might not be the utopia you think it would be.

To wit:

Is there a federal program that is run well? There might be, but I certainly can't think of one.

In a "one size fits all" approach, do you think the fed will adopt the requirements of the LEAST restrictive states or the MOST restrictive states? Personally, I don't want licensing requirements similar to those of Illinois becoming the National standard.

The only National "carry law" we should need and that would acceptable would be National Constitutional Carry. I'm not holding my breath on that.
 

Law abider

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Messages
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Location
Ellsworth Wisconsin
Be careful what you wish for. Putting the Fed in charge of passing carry laws might not be the utopia you think it would be.

To wit:

Is there a federal program that is run well? There might be, but I certainly can't think of one.

In a "one size fits all" approach, do you think the fed will adopt the requirements of the LEAST restrictive states or the MOST restrictive states? Personally, I don't want licensing requirements similar to those of Illinois becoming the National standard.

The only National "carry law" we should need and that would acceptable would be National Constitutional Carry. I'm not holding my breath on that.

You said best what I was trying to say. To expound, on my earlier statement, The Feds should force states to comply to the constitution as you said constitutional carry so that we don't have so many different convoluted gun laws and reciprocity. But That might give Feds a way to infringe to the point where we only carry BB guns on our property only.
 

apjonas

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18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(ii) sez

....if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

So as far as federal requirements.

A WI resident with a WI license is OK.
A WI resident with only a non-WI license is NOT OK.
A non-WI resident is NOT OK because WI does not issue to NR's.
A WI resident with a State X permit is OK in State X.
Nobody is OK if the basis of carry is reciprocity/recognition of an OOSL.
Now as pointed out by Paul Fisher, WI specifically by statute, grants an OOSL the same permission (license) as an WI license holder. This is slightly different from the general recognition provision. The problems I see are (1) since the exemption is given by the feds, they might legitimately claim to be able to define the terms, the state notwithstanding and (2) It is unclear if WI officials are in a position to verify than an OOSL is qualified to receive it. It is reasonable to rely on the officials of a sister state but the feds may go to the "exact words" ploy.
 

Law abider

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Ellsworth Wisconsin
....if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

So as far as federal requirements.

A WI resident with a WI license is OK.
A WI resident with only a non-WI license is NOT OK.
A non-WI resident is NOT OK because WI does not issue to NR's.
A WI resident with a State X permit is OK in State X.
Nobody is OK if the basis of carry is reciprocity/recognition of an OOSL.
Now as pointed out by Paul Fisher, WI specifically by statute, grants an OOSL the same permission (license) as an WI license holder. This is slightly different from the general recognition provision. The problems I see are (1) since the exemption is given by the feds, they might legitimately claim to be able to define the terms, the state notwithstanding and (2) It is unclear if WI officials are in a position to verify than an OOSL is qualified to receive it. It is reasonable to rely on the officials of a sister state but the feds may go to the "exact words" ploy.

Can you please expound in as few as possible words your bullet points.
 

protias

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Dec 18, 2008
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Location
SE, WI
I just wish congress would pass US carry laws so we don't get into these state to state complexities and reciprocities and a whole lot in between. This could force states like NJ etc... to comply to the US constitution meaning and interpretation aka right to keep and BEAR arms. 2A in the US constitution and we are US citizens first and also citizens of respective states second. Where is this precedence being applied in this area: BEAR? :question:

How about just removing the illegal laws from the books and be done with it instead?
 

apjonas

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I'll Try

Can you please expound in as few as possible words your bullet points.

Gee, I thought I had done pretty good originally but since you asked.

A WI licensee (who by definition must be a WI resident) is permitted under federal law to carry anywhere in a school zone, whether on the property or within 1000 feet.

A WI resident who has no licensee or only one(s) granted by (a) state(s) other than Wisconsin is prohibited by federal from carrying in a school zone (whether school property of within 1000 feet).

A non-WI resident cannot carry in a school zone because he does not possess a WI license. Any other licenses are irrelevant.

A person, without regard to residency, may carry in a school zone if he possess a license granted by the state in which the school is located.

A person who possess a license that is recognized via reciprocity or other means by the state in which the school is located may not carry in a school zone on the basis of that license.

In Wisconsin (may be other states as well) the law treats a OOSL as a (in-state) licensee for the purpose of a GFSZ. Now that is the state's position (as well as restricting licensees from school property) but it is unclear whether the feds agree. The main problem in my view is whether the granting of this license (here the "permission" not a little card evidencing the permission) requires Wisconsin officials to independently determine if the OOSL is "entitled to receive" the license which has a little card as evidence) granted by another state. The feds may well ask - if it is ok with Wisconsin that the OOSL carries in the 1000 ft zone (remember school property prohibited by WI law) why don't the just issue a card to the non-resident just as they do with residents? WI doesn't even have to do the same amount of work - just have the OOSL show his non-WI license and print out a Wisconsin license for him.

This is one of those situations that only lawyers could love. It seems pretty straightforward and everybody's needs are being me but the language of the (federal) statute (it can be argued) doesn't permit the easy answer (without a court case). I can see and could argue either side. Maybe some attorney will. Certainly for $300/hour plus expenses.

Hope this helps. If not, ask again.
 

Law abider

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Aug 17, 2011
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Ellsworth Wisconsin
Gee, I thought I had done pretty good originally but since you asked.

A WI licensee (who by definition must be a WI resident) is permitted under federal law to carry anywhere in a school zone, whether on the property or within 1000 feet.

A WI resident who has no licensee or only one(s) granted by (a) state(s) other than Wisconsin is prohibited by federal from carrying in a school zone (whether school property of within 1000 feet).

A non-WI resident cannot carry in a school zone because he does not possess a WI license. Any other licenses are irrelevant.

A person, without regard to residency, may carry in a school zone if he possess a license granted by the state in which the school is located.

A person who possess a license that is recognized via reciprocity or other means by the state in which the school is located may not carry in a school zone on the basis of that license.

In Wisconsin (may be other states as well) the law treats a OOSL as a (in-state) licensee for the purpose of a GFSZ. Now that is the state's position (as well as restricting licensees from school property) but it is unclear whether the feds agree. The main problem in my view is whether the granting of this license (here the "permission" not a little card evidencing the permission) requires Wisconsin officials to independently determine if the OOSL is "entitled to receive" the license which has a little card as evidence) granted by another state. The feds may well ask - if it is ok with Wisconsin that the OOSL carries in the 1000 ft zone (remember school property prohibited by WI law) why don't the just issue a card to the non-resident just as they do with residents? WI doesn't even have to do the same amount of work - just have the OOSL show his non-WI license and print out a Wisconsin license for him.

This is one of those situations that only lawyers could love. It seems pretty straightforward and everybody's needs are being me but the language of the (federal) statute (it can be argued) doesn't permit the easy answer (without a court case). I can see and could argue either side. Maybe some attorney will. Certainly for $300/hour plus expenses.

Hope this helps. If not, ask again.

Yes it helps! Now Minnesotans who can come here because we recognize their license cannot OC within the 1000ft of WI school zone because they don't posess our lisence.

You just confirmed the fact that OC/CC is complicated. Now if i want to go to visit NC, I am going to have to be thorough with their OC/CC laws or I'll get into trouble. Like NoTolerance said we need constitutional carry to eliminate complexities.
 
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