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Thread: A question to be posed.

  1. #1
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    A question to be posed.

    First I am new here and this is sort of a opinion/editorial post that I would like the community to weigh in on.

    With ccw it is hard to panic the public if they can't see a weapon to be panicked about.

    With oc, yes it is your right to carry, but if you carry and someone sees it and freaks out and is legitimately scared for their safety and call 911 (beavercreek Walmart) someone can and have been shot over it.

    Now officers responding to a 911 call of a open carried weapon and a scared populace calling the police I can see more of these incidents occurring.

    In today's climate I usually have to side with law enforcement on a couple of points.

    As being in public safety myself (not leo) first issue and first thing we are taught is scene safety. I can state from a responder standpoint showing up for a call for a man down with no other information on the call and seeing someone on that scene with a open carry firearm I do not know if that person with the oc is the reason that the victim is down (ie: the oc person may have shot him). In that sense I would post up and stage until leo has secured the scene and has safely controlled that firearm.

    Now some will disagree but I am not taking any chances with my going home at the end of my shift and now departments that are more urban are starting to issue body armor which also leads to the thoughts in your brain "they are giving me a vest wth why?" Alot of times if there is a shooting the shooter or shooters will remain close by to make sure their target is dead and stays that way by firing at ems personnel.

    So IMHO ccw is a better way to go and each person with a ccw has to meet certain conditions to carry that weapon and it is not out in the open to scare the general populace. If a weapon is oc I HAVE to assume for the safety of myself and my family your intentions are hostile, I can not take the chance you are just exercising your 2a rights.

    Your thoughts are welcomed and again this isn't a debate topic per se on the right to carry but the perception of the public. Look at Colorado movie theater, Sandy hook, school shooting in padducha ky in the late 1990's, columbine and general news reporting and tv and movies that dominate popular culture.

    We as a society can generally only move as fast as the slowest people (and the least intelligent) if we are to move forward at all.

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    Your ignorant perception of risk is immaterial. It is not the purpose of natural law, COTUS or public servants to make you feel safe.

    You are evidently some sort of public servant, but that would deny your public master a natural law right, and an enumerated right. Is your servant's need to go home safely at the end of the day superior to your masters' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Maybe you are in the wrong line of work.
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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    You drank the Kool-Aid and you like it. I grew up way before 1968. In Ohio gun control didn't happen until 1972. So, to a guy my age the whole gun debate is bullpucky. Girls have cooties. You were raised to be afraid of guns; guns are evil. Medical malpractice kills more people than guns. When I had my heart attack my wife got copies of everything, can't trust doctors. One of my closest friends is a doctor and he even says you better get a second or third opinion.

    I suggest you go out and learn that the majority of people with guns are good people.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Here we go yet again where unfounded fear overrides logic.

    The truth in Michigan is that OC went from being almost unheard of to being accepted as normal in about 8 years. How did this happen?

    People actually dared to OC everywhere and everyday it was legal. Of course the media went nuts with fear mongering sensationalizing articles. Especially with articles where the cops arrested folks for legally OCing........ and the articles where the police lost the resulting law suits brought by those OCers. But it backfired because all the media attention ended up educating the public that open carry was not only legal but no permit was required.

    Guess what? No open carriers went on any shooting rampages. No open carriers shot up any schools. And anyone who pays attention would note that those who want to shoot people DON'T open carry but use concealment to sneak up on their victims.

    And the experiences of us OCers in Michigan show that the way to make something, like OC, a normal everyday accepted thing is to grow some stones and actually do it even if some folks don't like it because the more something is normally seen the sooner that something will be seen as....... normal.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 08-16-2015 at 05:38 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Why are you here?

    Did you read anything about OCDO http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=26 before you decided to bring up the perception issue?

    There are lots of places where you can have a good, intelligent, rational debate (OK, will you settle for 1 out of 4?) about why CC is better than OC or why hoplophobic public perception matters. But that place is not here.

    There are even more places where you can join the chorus in singing the wrongness of OC. But that place is not here.

    Thank you for trolling.

    stay safe.
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    I can't tell if the OP's username is supposed to be "common sense" or "come on sense", but I'm greatly amused by it...

    this, not so much.
    If a weapon is oc I HAVE to assume for the safety of myself and my family your intentions are hostile, I can not take the chance you are just exercising your 2a rights.
    Edit; Hey, since I feel like that is threatening, can we somehow make it to where Comonsense has to CC his/her cognitive abilities? I want him/her to meet certain conditions before exercising his/her rights around me. Otherwise I might freak out and call the police...
    Last edited by PistolPackingMomma; 08-16-2015 at 05:52 PM. Reason: ETA

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Why are you here?

    Did you read anything about OCDO http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=26 before you decided to bring up the perception issue?

    There are lots of places where you can have a good, intelligent, rational debate (OK, will you settle for 1 out of 4?) about why CC is better than OC or why hoplophobic public perception matters. But that place is not here.

    There are even more places where you can join the chorus in singing the wrongness of OC. But that place is not here.

    Thank you for trolling.

    stay safe.
    I am not trolling I am asking for opinions and perceptions. How do you change people's perception. I don't argue the fact that most people who own guns are good people. But with the fear the general public has how do you curb that how do you change perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    I can't tell if the OP's username is supposed to be "common sense" or "come on sense", but I'm greatly amused by it...

    this, not so much.
    Again not trolling. Question I am posing is how do you change perception of people to be open and not to be fearful. How do you change culture to be accepting of oc. What happened in beavercreek Walmart is a perfect example a person became scared and boom too dead people. How do you change that.

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    By normalizing openly carried holstered pistols. By making OC commonplace and unremarkable. By making OC legal across the United States. By educating that the 2A right is OC, but CC is a privilege sold.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-16-2015 at 06:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I doubt that you will find much agreement here. You do know that this forum is dedicated to advancing open carry, don't you? As far as your job, I'd advise you to stay in Ohio. The scenario that you presented would never occur in Ky. You would be "staged up" for a long time, because that firearm would not be secured. It can't be secured by state statute, unless the owner was arrested for some crime. In Ky. EMS/LEO/Firefighters/dog catchers/code enforcement/public health/etc/etc responds everyday to scenes where firearms are present, either open or concealed. If you won't respond to those scenes, you might as well stay home. Most of those public employees also carry while on duty, some OC. Your fear of armed citizens is abnormal and irrational.
    I am not trying to argue the rights of oc. When it comes to scene safety the fire and ems can request that the police remove that individual from the scene as he/she can be interfering with the ability of ems to respond safely.

    But that's not the point I am trying to make I am posing a real situation and people's real feelings so how is that addressed to make it publicly acceptable and so people do not fear it. I am trying to have a productive dialogue asking for a way to advance the cause. To advance the cause the people that fear it have to lose that fear or other incidents such as Walmart can and will occur again. So how do you change that.

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    Asked and answered. Don't cherry-pick the easy retorts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    By normalizing openly carried holstered pistols. By making OC commonplace and unremarkable. By making OC legal across the United States. By educating that the 2A right is OC, but CC is a privilege sold.
    Good point. Oc should be legal all across the USA. But how do we go about normalizing it. How do we get the public to buy in and the police as well not to fear guns on the street. Obviously most if not all criminals are not oc they are trying to be clandestine about their activity and oc garners to much attention.

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    So where I am getting at was the main point of the post is how does it happen what steps do we have to take with the public to make it a reality

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    Oh and commonsense was taken had to shorten it to use it

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    Fear is the mind killer of the ignorant. If a cop is fearful of a legally armed citizen then he is in the wrong job. If his need to go home safely at the end of his shift overcomes his training, then he is in the wrong job.

    I have to dress for dinner out, drinking, or I would be armed.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-16-2015 at 06:09 PM.
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    People fear what they don't understand and cause panics.

    Here is a example how do we prevent what happens In the second part of the video. How do we get oc to be universally accepted.

    https://youtu.be/jf5TEoo-EY0

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    Why can't all the oc be treated like the first part of the video why is there a difference and how do we overcome that in the second part of the video this man's 2a rights were severely violated. How do we stop that.

    And the cops I know can't get paid whole heck of alot to be put through what they go through. There has also been calls in light of recent events in Ferguson, Cleveland and Cincinnati that threats have been made to blatantly assassinate police by coming up behind them. Happened a few months back in NYC 2 NYPD killed execution style from behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comonsense View Post
    Again not trolling. Question I am posing is how do you change perception of people to be open and not to be fearful. How do you change culture to be accepting of oc. What happened in beavercreek Walmart is a perfect example a person became scared and boom too dead people. How do you change that.
    By education. Read this: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...%29-Cincinnati
    And many, many more like this in Ohio.

    There are many who open carry and the general public just don't notice.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    To comonsense....

    You keep asking how OC can be made accepted.... DID YOU MISS POST #4??????!!!!!! Or are you intentionally ignoring it?

    Well... here it is again.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Here we go yet again where unfounded fear overrides logic.

    The truth in Michigan is that OC went from being almost unheard of to being accepted as normal in about 8 years. How did this happen?

    People actually dared to OC everywhere and everyday it was legal. Of course the media went nuts with fear mongering sensationalizing articles. Especially with articles where the cops arrested folks for legally OCing........ and the articles where the police lost the resulting law suits brought by those OCers. But it backfired because all the media attention ended up educating the public that open carry was not only legal but no permit was required.

    Guess what? No open carriers went on any shooting rampages. No open carriers shot up any schools. And anyone who pays attention would note that those who want to shoot people DON'T open carry but use concealment to sneak up on their victims.

    And the experiences of us OCers in Michigan show that the way to make something, like OC, a normal everyday accepted thing is to grow some stones and actually do it even if some folks don't like it because the more something is normally seen the sooner that something will be seen as....... normal.
    What else would you like to hear? Or are you just trying to make some kind of argument that CC is better than OC?

    Bottom line is that the more people who normally OC the more the public, and the police, accept OC as.................. normal.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-16-2015 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Rule #19 in the quote
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by comonsense View Post
    ........When it comes to scene safety the fire and ems can request that the police remove that individual from the scene as he/she can be interfering with the ability of ems to respond safely.
    --snipped--
    Cite please on legality of removing legal OCer (who is not threatening harm to anyone) w/o probable cause or RAS.

    Can be, could be, might be is fear mongering. Not interfering is still not interfering........yes?
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comonsense View Post
    Why can't all the oc be treated like the first part of the video why is there a difference and how do we overcome that in the second part of the video this man's 2a rights were severely violated. How do we stop that.

    And the cops I know can't get paid whole heck of alot to be put through what they go through. There has also been calls in light of recent events in Ferguson, Cleveland and Cincinnati that threats have been made to blatantly assassinate police by coming up behind them. Happened a few months back in NYC 2 NYPD killed execution style from behind.
    What do threats from places like Ferguson, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, about sneaking up on cops have to do with OC other than a weak attempt to say that OCers are like bad guys who sneak up on cops from behind.

    You are rapidly losing any semblance of credibility.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 08-16-2015 at 06:29 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    What do threats from places like Ferguson, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, about sneaking up on cops have to do with OC other than a weak attempt to say that OCers are like bad guys who sneak up on cops from behind.

    You are rapidly losing any semblance of credibility.
    From my earlier post I addressed that oc peeps are not generally 98% of the time bad guys that bad guys are more prone to cc here is what I posted


    Good point. Oc should be legal all across the USA. But how do we go about normalizing it. How do we get the public to buy in and the police as well not to fear guns on the street. Obviously most if not all criminals are not oc they are trying to be clandestine about their activity and oc garners to much attention.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    What do threats from places like Ferguson, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, about sneaking up on cops have to do with OC other than a weak attempt to say that OCers are like bad guys who sneak up on cops from behind.

    You are rapidly losing any semblance of credibility.
    True - Misapplying tidbits of information and distoring facts thereof does weaken one's position greatly.
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    You know what? I'm not done. I haven't seen thought matter this rancid in a while, and Momma's got herself a bone to pick...

    Quote Originally Posted by comonsense View Post
    First I am new here and this is sort of a opinion/editorial post that I would like the community to weigh in on.
    Yep, you're new here. Are you here to interact with and get to know the community in question or just sh!t your thoughts in our collective bowl and run for the fence?

    With ccw it is hard to panic the public if they can't see a weapon to be panicked about.
    Good thing you pointed this out; I was totally oblivious to the idea that people might be uncomfortable or frightened by a holstered weapon, and since I carry strictly for their benefit, I will now cover myself in a 6 foot long parka to prevent the unwashed, unintelligent masses from running over the cliff like lemmings. Instead, I will rely on the power of wishing stars to protect me from robbers and rapists looking for an easy target.

    Hey, I think people want to do the same thing with the LBGT community too. Let's just cover that up so nobody panics, amirite? And hell, I'll also raise my kids to avoid having any preconceived notions challenged by refusing to expose them to anyone different than us. I'm sure they'll still turn into fully functional, adaptable and well rounded adults.

    With oc, yes it is your right to carry, but if you carry and someone sees it and freaks out and is legitimately scared for their safety and call 911 (beavercreek Walmart) someone can and have been shot over it.
    Remember kids, it's not murder if someone freaks out. I always wave an airsoft rifle around while picking up bread and peanut butter at my local walmart; so I guess I can expect to be shot the next time I enter the store armed with a HOLSTERED WEAPON.

    Now officers responding to a 911 call of a open carried weapon and a scared populace calling the police I can see more of these incidents occurring.
    Boy, it's a good thing you can predict the future where cops shoot indiscriminately at the whim of the scared populace rather than using an atom's measurement of rational thought to determine if there's a threat. Now can you win the lotto for me too?

    In today's climate I usually have to side with law enforcement on a couple of points.
    Oh god, this oughta be good...

    As being in public safety myself (not leo) first issue and first thing we are taught is scene safety. I can state from a responder standpoint showing up for a call for a man down with no other information on the call and seeing someone on that scene with a open carry firearm I do not know if that person with the oc is the reason that the victim is down (ie: the oc person may have shot him). In that sense I would post up and stage until leo has secured the scene and has safely controlled that firearm.
    Yeah, you don't know. It's such a damn shame there aren't any other factors to take in to consideration with that scenario either; like the OC'ers behavior, the location, sh!t like that...

    Now some will disagree but I am not taking any chances with my going home at the end of my shift and now departments that are more urban are starting to issue body armor which also leads to the thoughts in your brain "they are giving me a vest wth why?" Alot of times if there is a shooting the shooter or shooters will remain close by to make sure their target is dead and stays that way by firing at ems personnel.
    If you are capable of any sort of research, you would know that police departments are using something called the "Free Surplus Program", where military toys are dumped into the hands of Barney Fife rather than sitting in a warehouse collecting dust. Why are cops getting body armor and anti-missile patrol tanks and grenade launchers? Because who gives a kid a toy and thinks he won't use it?
    Oh, and I want the cites to back up your claim that shooters will remain close by to make sure the target is dead. CITES, not stories from your co-worker's third cousin's buddy.

    So IMHO ccw is a better way to go and each person with a ccw has to meet certain conditions to carry that weapon and it is not out in the open to scare the general populace. If a weapon is oc I HAVE to assume for the safety of myself and my family your intentions are hostile, I can not take the chance you are just exercising your 2a rights.
    This is legitimately threatening. Are you going to shoot the next OC'er you see, and stand there to make sure he/she is dead? Are you going to shoot me in the aisle of walmart while my kids help me grocery shop? God only knows what sort of HOSTILE INTENTIONS I have, wearing a HOLSTERED firearm while lifting a pack of diapers in to my shopping cart.

    Your thoughts are welcomed and again this isn't a debate topic per se on the right to carry but the perception of the public.
    I don't give a damn what the public thinks. Some members of the public believe Al Qaeda has a base on the moon, some believe the royal family are reptilians, and that Elvis Presley is still alive.

    Look at Colorado movie theater, Sandy hook, school shooting in padducha ky in the late 1990's, columbine and general news reporting and tv and movies that dominate popular culture.
    Are you Jesus? Because it's miraculous that you are trying to equate mass shootings in notoriously GUN FREE ZONES with law abiding citizens wearing a holstered weapon on their hips as they pump gas, eat lunch and take their dogs for walks in the park.

    We as a society can generally only move as fast as the slowest people (and the least intelligent) if we are to move forward at all.
    Then stop holding us back, sugar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please on legality of removing legal OCer (who is not threatening harm to anyone) w/o probable cause or RAS.

    Can be, could be, might be is fear mongering. Not interfering is still not interfering........yes?
    Just like police (mostly highway patrol) in multiple states have arrested firefighters working an active crash scene for not moving their rescue since that was interfering with their ability to flow traffic.

    Just like a family member being upset and not helping the sick patient I can have the police remove them from the scene and their loved ones side for the best interest of the patient and my treatment of that patient.

    If ems feels that an individual is impeding their assessment of the scene and ability to render care since their may be some uneasiness about their presence we can have that person removed from the emergency scene as we are in charge of said scene.

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