A question to be posed.

comonsense · Aug 16, 2015

Grapeshot said:
Cite please on legality of removing legal OCer (who is not threatening harm to anyone) w/o probable cause or RAS.

Can be, could be, might be is fear mongering. Not interfering is still not interfering........yes?

Just like police (mostly highway patrol) in multiple states have arrested firefighters working an active crash scene for not moving their rescue since that was interfering with their ability to flow traffic.

Just like a family member being upset and not helping the sick patient I can have the police remove them from the scene and their loved ones side for the best interest of the patient and my treatment of that patient.

If ems feels that an individual is impeding their assessment of the scene and ability to render care since their may be some uneasiness about their presence we can have that person removed from the emergency scene as we are in charge of said scene.

PistolPackingMomma · Aug 16, 2015

comonsense said:
From my earlier post I addressed that oc peeps are not generally 98% of the time bad guys that bad guys are more prone to cc here is what I posted

Good point. Oc should be legal all across the USA. But how do we go about normalizing it. How do we get the public to buy in and the police as well not to fear guns on the street. Obviously most if not all criminals are not oc they are trying to be clandestine about their activity and oc garners to much attention.

How do we normalize it? By DOING it. By raising hell when innocent OCers are shot for doing nothing other than exercising their rights. By not FEARING the public's easily manipulated FEELINGS...

Read an essay by Mark Twain. It's called Corn Pone Opinions. I'm sure you can google it.

Dario · Aug 16, 2015

comonsense said:
Again not trolling. Question I am posing is how do you change perception of people to be open and not to be fearful. How do you change culture to be accepting of oc. What happened in beavercreek Walmart is a perfect example a person became scared and boom too dead people. How do you change that.

By not waving it around or brandishing and keeping it properly secured.

And I thought only one person died, not too[sic] at Beavercreek.

Grapeshot · Aug 16, 2015

Originally Posted by Grapeshot

Cite please on legality of removing legal OCer (who is not threatening harm to anyone) w/o probable cause or RAS.

Can be, could be, might be is fear mongering. Not interfering is still not interfering........yes?

comonsense said:
Just like police (mostly highway patrol) in multiple states have arrested firefighters working an active crash scene for not moving their rescue since that was interfering with their ability to flow traffic.

Just like a family member being upset and not helping the sick patient I can have the police remove them from the scene and their loved ones side for the best interest of the patient and my treatment of that patient.

If ems feels that an individual is impeding their assessment of the scene and ability to render care since their may be some uneasiness about their presence we can have that person removed from the emergency scene as we are in charge of said scene.

Gross distortion and ignores the conditions stated. You failed to provide the formal cite.

Caution - continue in this vein and earn yourself a timeout.

comonsense · Aug 16, 2015

PistolPackingMomma said:
You know what? I'm not done. I haven't seen thought matter this rancid in a while, and Momma's got herself a bone to pick...

Yep, you're new here. Are you here to interact with and get to know the community in question or just sh!t your thoughts in our collective bowl and run for the fence?

Good thing you pointed this out; I was totally oblivious to the idea that people might be uncomfortable or frightened by a holstered weapon, and since I carry strictly for their benefit, I will now cover myself in a 6 foot long parka to prevent the unwashed, unintelligent masses from running over the cliff like lemmings. Instead, I will rely on the power of wishing stars to protect me from robbers and rapists looking for an easy target.

Hey, I think people want to do the same thing with the LBGT community too. Let's just cover that up so nobody panics, amirite? And hell, I'll also raise my kids to avoid having any preconceived notions challenged by refusing to expose them to anyone different than us. I'm sure they'll still turn into fully functional, adaptable and well rounded adults.

Remember kids, it's not murder if someone freaks out. I always wave an airsoft rifle around while picking up bread and peanut butter at my local walmart; so I guess I can expect to be shot the next time I enter the store armed with a HOLSTERED WEAPON.

Boy, it's a good thing you can predict the future where cops shoot indiscriminately at the whim of the scared populace rather than using an atom's measurement of rational thought to determine if there's a threat. Now can you win the lotto for me too?

Oh god, this oughta be good...

Yeah, you don't know. It's such a damn shame there aren't any other factors to take in to consideration with that scenario either; like the OC'ers behavior, the location, sh!t like that...

If you are capable of any sort of research, you would know that police departments are using something called the "Free Surplus Program", where military toys are dumped into the hands of Barney Fife rather than sitting in a warehouse collecting dust. Why are cops getting body armor and anti-missile patrol tanks and grenade launchers? Because who gives a kid a toy and thinks he won't use it?
Oh, and I want the cites to back up your claim that shooters will remain close by to make sure the target is dead. CITES, not stories from your co-worker's third cousin's buddy.

This is legitimately threatening. Are you going to shoot the next OC'er you see, and stand there to make sure he/she is dead? Are you going to shoot me in the aisle of walmart while my kids help me grocery shop? God only knows what sort of HOSTILE INTENTIONS I have, wearing a HOLSTERED firearm while lifting a pack of diapers in to my shopping cart. :uhoh:

I don't give a damn what the public thinks. Some members of the public believe Al Qaeda has a base on the moon, some believe the royal family are reptilians, and that Elvis Presley is still alive.

Are you Jesus? Because it's miraculous that you are trying to equate mass shootings in notoriously GUN FREE ZONES with law abiding citizens wearing a holstered weapon on their hips as they pump gas, eat lunch and take their dogs for walks in the park.

Then stop holding us back, sugar.

Well first point on the Shooters hanging around is based off of paramedic training and the first rule of scene safety.... It's their emergency not mine. Then if it's a shooting we wait for law enforcement to clear the scene and secure it before we go into treat the patient for that reason for safety. Have you ever rolled into a ghetto (white, back, Latino doesn't matter) and had to drive by the scene of a shooting with crazy screaming family because law enforcement was not on the scene yet.

Always my safety is first my partners is second we are all taught that from day one and I have been in fire/end for 21 years and closely associated with law enforcement since before then as family was Dayton PD.

I am not talking bout holstered weapons only, people are open carrying ar-15 shot guns and riffles. I am defending their right to do so but watching videos on YouTube of peeps walking into Walmart with those weapons and some people scattering like flies.

skidmark · Aug 16, 2015

You keep asking "How do you normalize ...." Then you throw up cherry-picked instances when hoplophobes have reacted in a panic. (And yes, I am considering LEOs to be hoplophobes in the instances you have repeated.) You also have not provided "the rest of the story" in many of the instances you throw out - particularly the LEOs having a Come To Jesus Meeting with their superiors after arresting EMT who refused to move their patients to meet the LEO's desire for ease in traffic direction.

These, along with your repeated protestations that you really truly want to have a discussion about how to normalize OCing so that it does not scare the snot out of the public, are the sorts of tactics that Moms Demand Action, Everytown for Gun Safety, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence and the rest of the anti-rights gun haters use. Why should we actually engage in a give-and-take with you when so far all you have done is show that you have no interest in exploring your position against ours, let alone being willing and prepared to change your position, but fully expect us to change ours.

stay safe.

Grapeshot · Aug 16, 2015

comonsense said:
Well first point on the Shooters hanging around is based off of paramedic training and the first rule of scene safety.... It's their emergency not mine. Then if it's a shooting we wait for law enforcement to clear the scene and secure it before we go into treat the patient for that reason for safety. Have you ever rolled into a ghetto (white, back, Latino doesn't matter) and had to drive by the scene of a shooting with crazy screaming family because law enforcement was not on the scene yet.

Always my safety is first my partners is second we are all taught that from day one and I have been in fire/end for 21 years and closely associated with law enforcement since before then as family was Dayton PD.

I am not talking bout holstered weapons only, people are open carrying ar-15 shot guns and riffles. I am defending their right to do so but watching videos on YouTube of peeps walking into Walmart with those weapons and some people scattering like flies.

Yes we were talking about holstered handguns only - normalizing the OC of properly holstered handguns. Long guns are off-topic for OCDO - see the forum rules.

You have earned a reputation that would seem to be self-imposed. You have been led to the water. If you chose to not drink, that is your misfortune.

You may consider this your 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] warning.

color of law · Aug 16, 2015

Oops, the story is changing. Now it's long guns. I think a rule has been violated. And then mentions Dayton police who are under scrutiny.

PistolPackingMomma · Aug 16, 2015

comonsense said:
Well first point on the Shooters hanging around is based off of paramedic training and the first rule of scene safety.... It's their emergency not mine. Then if it's a shooting we wait for law enforcement to clear the scene and secure it before we go into treat the patient for that reason for safety. Have you ever rolled into a ghetto (white, back, Latino doesn't matter) and had to drive by the scene of a shooting with crazy screaming family because law enforcement was not on the scene yet.

The above is not a cite that backs up your assertion that shooters stay on the scene to make sure the person they shot is dead. Please try again or redact.

Always my safety is first my partners is second we are all taught that from day one and I have been in fire/end for 21 years and closely associated with law enforcement since before then as family was Dayton PD.

And my safety is first too. So answer my question; are you going to shoot me if you see me OC'ing?

I am not talking bout holstered weapons only, people are open carrying ar-15 shot guns and riffles.

First you advocate CC, then you repeatedly ask how to go about normalizing open carry (even without the forum rules, which I'm sure you read, that prohibit LGOC, this would indicate holstered handguns) but then you say that you aren't referring to handgun OC only...well, my name ain't Madam Chloe, sugar, so I'm glad you clarified.

I am defending their right to do so but watching videos on YouTube of peeps walking into Walmart with those weapons and some people scattering like flies.

How exactly are you defending anyone's rights by insisting they conceal, under the concern of "public panic" and "you'll be shot"?

Citizen · Aug 16, 2015

comonsense said:
Just like police (mostly highway patrol) in multiple states have arrested firefighters working an active crash scene for not moving their rescue since that was interfering with their ability to flow traffic.

Just like a family member being upset and not helping the sick patient I can have the police remove them from the scene and their loved ones side for the best interest of the patient and my treatment of that patient.

If ems feels that an individual is impeding their assessment of the scene and ability to render care since their may be some uneasiness about their presence we can have that person removed from the emergency scene as we are in charge of said scene.

And, so it begins. Twisting language. Being nearby with a holstered defensive sidearm is impeding on the part of the OCer because of EMS failure/inability to ignore distractions and focus on the situation in front of them.

I've never seen a holstered defensive sidearm that emitted fear waves. The viewer is responsible for his own attitudes and emotions. The reason he is nervous or fearful is because of his own pre-existing ideas--not objective facts at the exact moment.

And, since when did enumerated rights become subordinate to irrational fears?

Would these EMT's also have a private videographer recording their actions removed because he affected their "ability to render care since there may be some uneasiness about their presence?"

ATM · Aug 17, 2015

It seems that the follow-up inquiry of how to change public perception regarding open carry does not follow from the initial post promoting concealment. In fact, they stand in logical contrast.

One does not change a perception by concealing the perceived object of fear or scorn, there is nothing educational for the public to glean from such an approach.

Nice try, though.

twoskinsonemanns · Aug 17, 2015

We deal in actual facts and evidence and laws...Not fantastical hearsay. As the saying goes "the plural of anecdote is not 'data'". It will be difficult to push your closet carry agenda with vague cite-less stories and personal fears. The proper victims for that sort of fear-mongering is other CCers. As those that practice OC routinely we are shielded against it by reality.

Here is some... On Friday, walking through Food Lion, I passed a little girl (6ish yo) with her father and as I did she said to daddy "He has a gun". Now I don't know what he kneeled down and whispered to her but it was obvious he nor anyone else was scared or panicked. Hopefully it will be less a curiosity for her as she sees more and more of it. That is, obviously, the only way to normalize anything.

Grapeshot · Aug 17, 2015

Pity the poor person(s) whose day dreams exceed their worst nightmares - when the perception of reality becomes more important than truth and facts.

We must be ever vigilant to not be forced to living in their world.

Ethics, honesty, and honor are traits common to all truly good people.

Simple thought for the day: Treat others as you would have them treat you.

OC for ME · Aug 17, 2015

comonsense said:
Just like police (mostly highway patrol) in multiple states have arrested firefighters working an active crash scene for not moving their rescue since that was interfering with their ability to flow traffic.

Non sequitur.

Just like a family member being upset and not helping the sick patient I can have the police remove them from the scene and their loved ones side for the best interest of the patient and my treatment of that patient.

If ems feels that an individual is impeding their assessment of the scene and ability to render care since their may be some uneasiness about their presence we can have that person removed from the emergency scene as we are in charge of said scene.

Cite the laws (statutes) that authorize the removal of a citizen for merely OCing on his own property.

You are of the CC Industrial Complex...begone troll!

solus · Aug 17, 2015

WE are already there!!

tis you and your inbred inability to critically think as to what is being told to you by members of this forum.

LISTEN...instead of regurgitating what you were taught by uneducated folk ~ nice LE's included.

THINK...look at the unbiased evidence around you and critically examine it.

ACT...OC ~ instead of using a state sponsored profit center generated privilege card to CC!!

(darn, you're like someone saying you don't like Brussels sprouts yet have never tasted them!)

your comment being 'associated w/LE for xyz years is quite telling on your brainwashed inability to think for yourself.

ipse

COMMON...TELL YOU WHAT...LET'S MEET UP FOR LUNCH/EARLY DINNER ANYWHERE IN THE GEM CITY AT AN ESTABLISHMENT WHERE I CAN LEGALLY OC AND WATCH THE REACTION(S) OF THOSE PATRONS AROUND. WANT TO DRIVE OVER SKID/GRAPE/BUCKEYE GROUP...I'LL BUY SKID/GRAPE'S THIS TIME SINCE I MISSED YOUR EXCURSION TO THE TARHEEL STATE?

stealthyeliminator · Aug 17, 2015

comonsense said:
But that's not the point I am trying to make I am posing a real situation and people's real feelings so how is that addressed to make it publicly acceptable and so people do not fear it. I am trying to have a productive dialogue asking for a way to advance the cause. To advance the cause the people that fear it have to lose that fear or other incidents such as Walmart can and will occur again. So how do you change that.

First of all with rigid clarity that their irrationality cannot ever be used as justification for an offense against another human being, especially an offense as grave as homicide. Irrationality, when one attempts to use if for justification of offenses, should be chastised, not catered to.

We must return to a fundamental understanding of humanity, human rights, and equality. From that foundation, logical conclusions flow easily through cases like these.

You must understand that a person's fear is not central to the issue at hand. You are focusing on this fear as if it affects what is rational and somehow affects what is right. It does not. What is rational and what is right are not determined by averaging the rationale of the public and what is rational cannot be changed by modifying public opinion, lowering educational standards, or effectively employing propaganda.

Grapeshot · Aug 17, 2015

gutshot said:
Once again, I find myself wishing I had refrained from posting in a thread that is just bait laid out by a troll. I am constantly advising others to not feed trolls, and yet, I have done it myself ...again. I humbly ask for forgiveness and advise all here "Do not feed the trolls". I know the hook is set deeply on this thread, but just let it go. This will turn into a 100+ post thread and accomplish nothing except entertainment for this troll. I have now wasted my time and energies on two posts in this thread that deserved none.

While I understand what you mean and why, I only partially agree.

Such posters as this (we have had a few), serve to sharpen our skills and deepen our personal knowledge - keeps us in practice.

OTOH - when requests for cites are ignored, broad brushing, erroneous information, distortion of facts, introduction of LGOC and other blatant bad conduct becomes intrusive on the well being of OCDO, then there other means available. Note that the poster in question has been given two public warnings and advised that a third would not be given. As with most things, there is a limit.

comonsense · Aug 18, 2015

he requests for citations listed below.* Common sense approach to scene management is to assume all bystanders especially family are potential threats.* How will a armed man react when we call the code on the scene because there is nothing more we can do for his wife and to transport bet would be a waste of resources as we do field terminations now. Will he be irrational in his highly charged emotional state will he draw his weapon and threaten us if we don't transport his wife?* We can not take that chance since our job is to provide care with in the scope of our protocol and that includes decisions to not transport a cardiac or traumatic arrest victim based on established protocols and the fact all has been done on scene that can be done.*

Check the greater Miami valley ems protocol at gmvemsc.org for field termination protocols for the cardiac arrest patient and the traumatic arrest patient for blunt and penetrating trauma.

Most who have never been on a emotional charged scene who decide this fits the protocol for field termination and had yogurt to an irrational emotional charged extremely upset family member and had to tell them we have done all we can do we are gonna cease resuscitation efforts now and turn control of the scene over to the police.* They will decide if the coroner needs to be called or if you have a funeral home in mind to call.

People need to understand we are trying to do our jobs and unless we ask you to help the best place for you to be is not here.* Especially for patient privacy reasons, anyone who will video a dying person in stages of undress covered in blood is a disrespectful person, would you want your child, wife, husband or parent to be filmed?

Do you wants us to have to pause to recheck on people around us since that will interfere with their care.

Read each link below and after that exhaustive research you will see how we do things.

http://www.emsworld.com/article/10322134/five-steps-to-scene-safety

http://www.emsworld.com/article/10653367/scene-safety

An example of open carry
http://www.jems.com/articles/print/...ip/scene-safe-mantra-provides-ems-danger.html

Assume all scenes are life threats
http://www.ems1.com/safety/articles/1115098-Scene-safety-tips-for-violent-patients-and-bystanders/

Bystanders as distraction
http://www.firerescue1.com/cod-comp...-fire-scene-bystanders-jeopardize-operations/

http://www.firerescue1.com/cod-comp...Quick-Clip-How-to-deal-with-angry-bystanders/

Response to scenes and shootings
https://books.google.com/books?id=P...q=bystander interference on ems scene&f=false

Tampa Fire Rescue Medical Protocol - USF Health

health.usf.edu/.../AL...

University of South Florida College of Public Health

Sep 1, 2009 -*Bystanders*who*interfere*with appropriate patient care, and cannot be ... verbally by*EMS, will be subject to removal from the*scene*by law

This article shows interruption of a end scene does not have to be physical
Yes you can film police but not end
http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/am...-trial-for-filming-police-medics-with-patient

Shooting at scenes
http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/am...-trial-for-filming-police-medics-with-patient

Covers the fact in one year 10 medics shot and killed on scene
Fatality Study: EMS Is a Dangerous Profession

www.emsedsem.org/.../EMS_Fatalities from JEMS.pdf

More*EMS*providers die on the job than anyone suspected, making the occupation ... or firefighter, according to the first-ever national study of*EMS*fatalities

Another

http://www.emsvillage.com/articles/article.cfm?id=998

http://www.firerescue1.com/lodd-lin...firefighter-killed-in-st-louis-area-shooting/

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/firefighter-injured-in-double-shooting-in-baltimore/34721966

http://www.jems.com/articles/2008/03/gunman-kills-self44-firefighte.html

http://www.emsworld.com/news/103414...cond-wounded-in-shooting-at-scene-of-domestic

http://roc.democratandchronicle.com/article/20121224/NEWS01/312240043/Firefighter-John-Perrone

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/20...-after-shooting-deaths-of-two-police-officers

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/police-5-gwinnett-firefighters-held-hostage/nXH29/

http://www.click2houston.com/news/w...ighter-trying-to-break-into-her-home/25029960

http://www.stltoday.com/suburban-jo...cle_8c2a8ced-a004-50cc-bd20-b8143495db8c.html

Just some examples of why ems and fire have to treat everyone at the scene as a threat.

http://www.fireengineering.com/arti...nsure-scene-safety-at-your-next-ems-call.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=l...age&q=ems scene safety and bystanders&f=false

comonsense · Aug 18, 2015

Grapeshot said:
While I understand what you mean and why, I only partially agree.

Such posters as this (we have had a few), serve to sharpen our skills and deepen our personal knowledge - keeps us in practice.

OTOH - when requests for cites are ignored, broad brushing, erroneous information, distortion of facts, introduction of LGOC and other blatant bad conduct becomes intrusive on the well being of OCDO, then there other means available. Note that the poster in question has been given two public warnings and advised that a third would not be given. As with most things, there is a limit.

See cites as above for industry practices

comonsense · Aug 18, 2015

solus said:
WE are already there!!

tis you and your inbred inability to critically think as to what is being told to you by members of this forum.

LISTEN...instead of regurgitating what you were taught by uneducated folk ~ nice LE's included.

THINK...look at the unbiased evidence around you and critically examine it.

ACT...OC ~ instead of using a state sponsored profit center generated privilege card to CC!!

(darn, you're like someone saying you don't like Brussels sprouts yet have never tasted them!)

your comment being 'associated w/LE for xyz years is quite telling on your brainwashed inability to think for yourself.

ipse

COMMON...TELL YOU WHAT...LET'S MEET UP FOR LUNCH/EARLY DINNER ANYWHERE IN THE GEM CITY AT AN ESTABLISHMENT WHERE I CAN LEGALLY OC AND WATCH THE REACTION(S) OF THOSE PATRONS AROUND. WANT TO DRIVE OVER SKID/GRAPE/BUCKEYE GROUP...I'LL BUY SKID/GRAPE'S THIS TIME SINCE I MISSED YOUR EXCURSION TO THE TARHEEL STATE?

Well inability to critically think lol. In a inherently dangerous situation one must prepare for the worse and view people as a threat and remain hyper vigilante to protect ones self. Today if somine doesn't comply with a officers request (since all the videos on you tube showing horrid experiences with police...are the minority otherwise there would be billions of videos on there since millions of encounters occur yearly) he must assume you are hidiso something. Why else would you refuse to cooperate if there is noting to hide. That is how police are trained. They use critical thinking trees to decide the course of action. I have never in 21 years in ems ran into a irrational angry cop, not once at any point as a civilian or on the job. I see themdoing a job that most people in this country couldn't do and a lot of those officers are vets who have served in combat. Those vets I think are extremely adept at threat detection and mitigation of said threat, don't you? They have the training and experience , don't they?

A question to be posed.

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