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Thread: Officer finally charged with 2nd Degree Murder

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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    Officer finally charged with 2nd Degree Murder

    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sometimes justice can be a long time coming.

    I'll still withhold any personal opinion(s) and follow the court proceedings.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Dayum, that was fast! [/sarcasm]

    Now to sit back and enjoy. Wonder if the FCPD's first few responses will be brought into the testimony?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    I wonder if there isn't an "arrangement."

    I don't see Murder 2 in the facts. I can't help but wonder if something wasn't worked out to charge him with something from which he can walk. A political settlement, if you will.

    A couple unrelated comments:

    FC Board of Supervisors Chairman Sharon Bulova was quoted today as seeing she was convinced effective reforms would prevent a repeat. Comment: I think the same was said in 2006 after optometrist Culosi was shot and killed by FCPD SWAT while unarmed.

    The defendant, former FCPD officer Torres, was quoted today as saying he respects the grand jury's decision. Great lawyer behind that comment, I'll bet.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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  5. #5
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    John Geer is a name none of us should ever forget. Pathetic that a $3M settlement is supposed to "compensate" the family for a life lost for absolutely no good reason except some beta human was "afraid." I'm all about waiting for the facts, court proceedings, protecting the lawful use of lethal force, yada yada, but it was pretty clear from the beginning that this was not a justified use of deadly force.

    Hopefully this scumbag as well as FCPD will be held accountable for their actions.

    Isn't it somewhat abnormal that a wrongful death settlement was made before any criminal proceedings happened?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post

    .

    Isn't it somewhat abnormal that a wrongful death settlement was made before any criminal proceedings happened?
    No. And the settlement probably was the wedge that forced the criminal prosecution.

    While "preponderance of the evidence" (50% plus a smidgen) is well less than "beyond a reasonable doubt" FCPD and its chief have made statements that go way beyond "we are sorry", "we never broke the law and promise never to do it again", and also stated that he was fired for improper use of a firearm. Pretty much an admission that this was not an"accident"

    I'm still amazed that the Commonwealth attorney brought a charge of 2nd Degree Murder

    second degree murder

    a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from First Degree Murder which is a premeditated, intentional killing, or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape, or armed robbery. Exact distinctions on degree vary by state.
    as instead of dropping it to Manslaughter

    Manslaughter

    The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

    Manslaughter is a distinct crime and is not considered a lesser degree of murder. The essential distinction between the two offenses is that malice aforethought must be present for murder, whereas it must be absent for manslaughter. Manslaughter is not as serious a crime as murder. On the other hand, it is not a justifiable or excusable killing for which little or no punishment is imposed.
    I smell bus wheels.

    stay safe.

    At Common Law, as well as under current statutes, the offense can be either voluntary or Involuntary Manslaughter. The main difference between the two is that voluntary manslaughter requires an intent to kill or cause serious bodily harm while involuntary manslaughter does not. Premeditation or deliberation, however, are elements of murder and not of manslaughter. Some states have abandoned the use of adjectives to describe different forms of the offense and, instead, simply divide the offense into varying degrees.[/quote]
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    No. And the settlement probably was the wedge that forced the criminal prosecution.

    While "preponderance of the evidence" (50% plus a smidgen) is well less than "beyond a reasonable doubt" FCPD and its chief have made statements that go way beyond "we are sorry", "we never broke the law and promise never to do it again", and also stated that he was fired for improper use of a firearm. Pretty much an admission that this was not an"accident"

    I'm still amazed that the Commonwealth attorney brought a charge of 2nd Degree Murder



    as instead of dropping it to Manslaughter



    I smell bus wheels.

    stay safe.

    At Common Law, as well as under current statutes, the offense can be either voluntary or Involuntary Manslaughter. The main difference between the two is that voluntary manslaughter requires an intent to kill or cause serious bodily harm while involuntary manslaughter does not. Premeditation or deliberation, however, are elements of murder and not of manslaughter. Some states have abandoned the use of adjectives to describe different forms of the offense and, instead, simply divide the offense into varying degrees.
    [/QUOTE]


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I suspect Citizen hit it on the head. Charge him with a crime that the facts do not support. He walks, as he should, since he didn't commit Second Degree Murder, and the real crime becomes that he was not charged with the actual crime he committed.

    My ignorant question: Will the jury be allowed to find him guilty of Manslaughter even though he is charged with 2nd Degree Murder?

    TFred

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I suspect Citizen hit it on the head. Charge him with a crime that the facts do not support. He walks, as he should, since he didn't commit Second Degree Murder, and the real crime becomes that he was not charged with the actual crime he committed.

    My ignorant question: Will the jury be allowed to find him guilty of Manslaughter even though he is charged with 2nd Degree Murder?

    TFred
    Good points guys. Sorry about my emotional response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    In the last decade, Fairfax police have logged 37 officer-involved shootings. None of those cases have resulted in charges against law-enforcement officials.

    "It's pretty remarkable for Fairfax County, I think this is the first indictment against a police officer in their entire history," says Mike Curtis, who is among the many people who have been pressing the police department and the county government for more information. "Now we'll see what happens when it goes to trial. I mean that's an even bigger hurdle than getting an indictment is getting a conviction."
    Hmm...interesting.

    It seems to me that the political masters were frustrated and a good minion should not bite the hand that feeds him. Would we be here if the political masters were on the "same page" as the chief from the get-go?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Hmm...interesting.

    It seems to me that the political masters were frustrated and a good minion should not bite the hand that feeds him. Would we be here if the political masters were on the "same page" as the chief from the get-go?
    Sorry

    http://wamu.org/news/15/08/18/fairfa...john_geer_case
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I suspect Citizen hit it on the head. Charge him with a crime that the facts do not support. He walks, as he should, since he didn't commit Second Degree Murder, and the real crime becomes that he was not charged with the actual crime he committed.

    My ignorant question: Will the jury be allowed to find him guilty of Manslaughter even though he is charged with 2nd Degree Murder?

    TFred
    I'm not sure TFred if Manslaughter is a lesser included charge or not, BUT a petition to the court to amend the charge to Manslaughter is a defense option - less risk and more defense options IMHO.

    "Criminal Charges in Virginia Homicide
    In Virginia whenever a person is criminally charged with killing another person the courts in Virginia will presume it is second degree murder.

    Why?

    Second degree murder is punishable by 5-20 years in prison and a $100,000.00 fine.This means that state must only prove you committed the homicide to make the case for second degree murder. To increase the charge the prosecutor must prove: ‘BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT” that the special conditions (willful, deliberate, premeditated or other actions) of first degree murder were committed. It is up to the defendant (Person who pulled the trigger) to prove that the lesser homicide was committed. The lesser charges are manslaughter which is still a crime, punishable by 1-10 years in prison and a $2,500 dollar fine, or justifiable or excusable homicide, which are not crimes. This may seem like "guilty until proven innocent" but it is a long established standard in Virginia."
    http://www.ccjatraining.com/articles...hargesinva.pdf
    "The second half of Virginia Code §18.2-32 says that second-degree murder is all murder other than capital and first-degree murder. Generally, second-degree murder charges are made for killings committed in the heat of a moment without premeditation or planning, but with malice.

    The statute makes second-degree murder an unclassified felony, and sets the penalty at a sentence of up to 40 years in prison.
    The statute doesn’t really give a firm definition of second-degree murder, but Virginia courts as far back as 1846 in McWhirt v. Commonwealth made malice a defining characteristic of murder as compared to other killings."
    http://www.roanokecriminalattorney.c...crimes/murder/
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I suspect Citizen hit it on the head. Charge him with a crime that the facts do not support. He walks, as he should, since he didn't commit Second Degree Murder, and the real crime becomes that he was not charged with the actual crime he committed.

    My ignorant question: Will the jury be allowed to find him guilty of Manslaughter even though he is charged with 2nd Degree Murder?

    TFred
    As previously stated, all homicide is murder.

    Read jury instruction 21.42 http://www.ocalynchburg.com/Jury%20I....htm#_Homicide to see how the lesser included offenses are delineated from 1st degree murder. (emphasis added)

    If you find from the evidence that the Commonwealth has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each of the first two elements of the offense as charged but you do not find beyond a reasonable doubt that the killing was willful, deliberate and premeditated, then you shall find the defendant guilty of second degree murder ....


    If you find that the Commonwealth has failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the killing was malicious but that the Commonwealth has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant killed [name of person] and further:
    (1) That the killing was the result of an intentional act; and
    (2) That the killing was committed while [in the sudden heat of passion upon reasonable provocation;in mutual combat]
    .
    then you shall find the defendant guilty of voluntary manslaughter....
    First, Alex, I'd like "drawing your gun and shooting someone in response to what you thought was them going for a gun is not premeditated" for $1,000.

    Next, I'll take "Drawing your gun and shooting at somebody is pretty much an intentional act" for $2,000, Alex.

    So, based on my extensive education, training, and practical experience (all 35 seconds of it in this case) I'd say 2nd degree murder has a good chance, and if it fails they can fall back on voluntary manslaughter.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    As previously stated, all homicide is murder.

    Read jury instruction 21.42 http://www.ocalynchburg.com/Jury%20I....htm#_Homicide to see how the lesser included offenses are delineated from 1st degree murder. (emphasis added)



    First, Alex, I'd like "drawing your gun and shooting someone in response to what you thought was them going for a gun is not premeditated" for $1,000.

    Next, I'll take "Drawing your gun and shooting at somebody is pretty much an intentional act" for $2,000, Alex.

    So, based on my extensive education, training, and practical experience (all 35 seconds of it in this case) I'd say 2nd degree murder has a good chance, and if it fails they can fall back on voluntary manslaughter.

    stay safe.
    But, but...he meant well.

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    Officer names routinely withheld in police shootings amid calls for transparency. TWT

    " By Andrea Noble - The Washington Times - Updated: 8:35 p.m. on Tuesday, August 18, 2015

    For 17 months after an officer responding to a domestic call fatally shot a man standing in the doorway of his home, police in the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington, only provided family members and the public with a bare-bones account of the shooting, declining to even identify the officer involved.

    Under pressure from a civil lawsuit, a U.S. senator and reporters, Fairfax County officials in January grudgingly released 11,000 pages of material related to the Aug. 29, 2013, shooting of 46-year-old John Geer. This week the now-fired officer was indicted on murder charges. [ ... ]

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ely-withheld-/
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    As has been said many times, "Either we are all equal, or we are not."

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    As has been said many times, "Either we are all equal, or we are not."
    You must have missed the memo. We're not.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Did this murderer have a history of being trigger happy or have a history of acting out with violence against citizens? I would venture to say "yes"... I am sure his file was exposed in the civil litigation however it may not be addressed in his criminal trial... My .02

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Did this murderer have a history of being trigger happy or have a history of acting out with violence against citizens? I would venture to say "yes"... I am sure his file was exposed in the civil litigation however it may not be addressed in his criminal trial... My .02

    Regards
    CCJ
    Likely we shall never know.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Did this murderer have a history of being trigger happy or have a history of acting out with violence against citizens? I would venture to say "yes"... I am sure his file was exposed in the civil litigation however it may not be addressed in his criminal trial... My .02

    Regards
    CCJ
    He was either still a trainee or still a probationer - I misremember which. As such he was supposed to be under some sort of scrutiny if not actually under someone's control. His training and performance record (whether a trainee/rookie/old-timer) is open for inspection by the CA (as well as the defense). In any case, what history there is will be pretty short.

    He says there was a furtive movement towards the waist. Three eyewitnesses (IIRC one was almost directly behind the shooter) say Greer's hands were up. Who are you going to believe?

    As "legal scholars" we understand the difference between "the preponderance of the evidence" (50% + the smallest scintilla) and "beyond a reasonable doubt". Do you think a jury is going to even care after the fact of the wrongful death settlement is introduced?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Why isn't the whole department on obstruction and aiding and abetting charges?

    Rotten f'in barrel.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why isn't the whole department on obstruction and aiding and abetting charges?

    Rotten f'in barrel.
    One step at a time, grasshopper.

    Although the odds are neither the obstruction nor the aiding/abetting charges would meet the basic elements necessary to prove the crime(s).

    http://www.ocalynchburg.com/Jury%20I...m#_Accomplices

    22.5 et seq. for obstruction
    and
    2 for accomplices

    While I share your frustration, until the General Assembly changes the law to include the sorts of circumstances you suggest there just is not going to be any crime that they can be charged with. OTOH, the family, heirs, and/or assigns can come back with a new civil rights violation (either state or federal, or even one following the other) for the emotional trauma and money expended in "forcing" the issue against the stalling tactics of the FCPD.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  23. #23
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Should I be the one to ask what this thread has to do with open carry in Virginia, or was someone else going to do that?
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    Acceptable thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Should I be the one to ask what this thread has to do with open carry in Virginia, or was someone else going to do that?
    LEA/LEO, guns, legal aspects and ramifications of interest to all 2A advocates in the state..........including OCers.

    Not verboten to have threads and discussions similar to this, where state appropriate.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    One step at a time, grasshopper.

    Although the odds are neither the obstruction nor the aiding/abetting charges would meet the basic elements necessary to prove the crime(s).

    http://www.ocalynchburg.com/Jury%20I...m#_Accomplices

    22.5 et seq. for obstruction
    and
    2 for accomplices

    While I share your frustration, until the General Assembly changes the law to include the sorts of circumstances you suggest there just is not going to be any crime that they can be charged with. OTOH, the family, heirs, and/or assigns can come back with a new civil rights violation (either state or federal, or even one following the other) for the emotional trauma and money expended in "forcing" the issue against the stalling tactics of the FCPD.

    stay safe.
    Thanks for the links.

    The mundanes would not have gotten away with helping a murderer and refusing to give his name up.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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