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Thread: Americans take down gun man on French train.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Americans take down gun man on French train.

    3 Americans tackled and stopped a massacre on a french train.

    http://www.winknews.com/2015/08/22/a...-french-train/

    FUQ- Cazeneuve said the Americans “were particularly courageous and showed great bravery in very difficult circumstances,” and that “without their sangfroid we could have been confronted with a terrible drama.”

    I am not jingoistic a bit. I do ponder why 3 Americans are the ones who took the guy down on a European train. 2 soldiers and one civilian. A fourth a Brit entered the fray after.

    Are Europeans so conditioned for help that initiative has been drained from them? Is the the product of increased statism and socialism? I see this trend in the States where more and more people act similar.

    One person told me it has nothing to do with "nationality" (missing my point, I do not believe in polylogism) but thinks its is because they are military, yet one was a civilian, and isn't military service mandatory in France?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Read about that - they ran towards the threat, rather than cowering in the corner. Good men doing what had to be done.

    Will the French government encourage/promote people arming themselves for personal defense? Not likely - their eyes are wide shut.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    [ ... ] isn't military service mandatory in France?
    Not since 2001, but they must register for the draft, just like Americans.

    In France, open carry is prohibited, carrying a concealed firearm in a public place is allowed, subject to a valid permit (sounds familiar). Citations at http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/france
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-23-2015 at 09:07 AM.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    3 Americans tackled and stopped a massacre on a french train.

    http://www.winknews.com/2015/08/22/a...-french-train/

    FUQ-
    Are Europeans so conditioned for help that initiative has been drained from them? Is the the product of increased statism and socialism? I see this trend in the States where more and more people act similar.

    ?
    Yes they have

    Europeans have been more wimpifed (spelling) than Americans the socialist's there have been a lot more successful in their don't hurt the poor buggers than here.

    One just has to look at their disarming policies.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 08-23-2015 at 09:31 AM.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Read about that - they ran towards the threat, rather than cowering in the corner. Good men doing what had to be done.

    Will the French government encourage/promote people arming themselves for personal defense? Not likely - their eyes are wide shut.
    Yep Bravo! to them!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Not since 2001, but they must register for the draft, just like Americans.

    In France, open carry is prohibited, carrying a concealed firearm in a public place is allowed, subject to a valid permit (sounds familiar). Citations at http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/france
    Thanks for the clarification, I guess its been that long since I cared about France.....lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Yes they have

    Europeans have been more wimpifed (spelling) than Americans the socialist's there have been a lot more successful in their don't hurt the poor buggers than here.

    One just has to look at their disarming policies.
    That's what I was thinking, the disarming has a lot to do with the sheep like mentality. We can see it here in certain areas too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Thanks for the clarification, I guess its been that long since I cared about France. That's what I was thinking, the disarming has a lot to do with the sheep like mentality. We can see it here in certain areas too.
    We can see it here in vastly most areas, political and urban, not so much rural.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member DeSchaine's Avatar
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    The US Military: Defending the European mainland since 1917!
    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty.
    Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
    Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.
    Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.
    -Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratification Convention, June 5, 1788

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Lindsey Graham wants to give the arm forces guy a medal. What about the citizen that participated?

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Lindsey Graham wants to give the arm forces guy a medal. What about the citizen that participated?
    This is what Soldiers get:
    The Soldier's Medal is an individual decoration of the United States Army. It was introduced as Section 11 of the Air Corps Act, passed by the Congress of the United States on July 2, 1926.[1][2] The criteria for the medal are: "The Soldier's Medal is awarded to any person of the Armed Forces of the United States or of a friendly foreign nation who, while serving in any capacity with the Army of the United States distinguished himself or herself by heroism not involving actual conflict with an enemy."[3]
    Attachment 12723

    This is what civilians get:
    The Secretary of the Army Award for Valor was established 15 April 2002, to acknowledge acts of heroism or bravery connected with an Army employee or Army activity, or that is some way benefits the Army. The performance of the act must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The equivalent military decoration for this award is the Soldier's Medal.[2]

    Attachment 12724
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Brave actions that possibly saved a lot of people.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This is what Soldiers get:
    The Soldier's Medal is an individual decoration of the United States Army. It was introduced as Section 11 of the Air Corps Act, passed by the Congress of the United States on July 2, 1926.[1][2] The criteria for the medal are: "The Soldier's Medal is awarded to any person of the Armed Forces of the United States or of a friendly foreign nation who, while serving in any capacity with the Army of the United States distinguished himself or herself by heroism not involving actual conflict with an enemy."[3]
    Attachment 12723

    This is what civilians get:
    The Secretary of the Army Award for Valor was established 15 April 2002, to acknowledge acts of heroism or bravery connected with an Army employee or Army activity, or that is some way benefits the Army. The performance of the act must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The equivalent military decoration for this award is the Soldier's Medal.[2]

    Attachment 12724
    I'll ask the question again. Lindsey Graham wants to give the arm forces guy a medal. What about the citizen that participated?

    What does the actions of these three men have to do with the army? Not a damn thing. These three American guys stepped up to the plate and stopped an armed lunatic.

  13. #13
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Lindsey Graham wants to give the arm forces guy a medal. What about the citizen that participated?
    How about a link to go with your claim?... something to help the discussion.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    How about a link to go with your claim?... something to help the discussion.
    Graham made the comment on "fox and friends weekend" this morning. It appears fox has not posted that interview. If I find it I'll post.

  15. #15
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Graham made the comment on "fox and friends weekend" this morning. It appears fox has not posted that interview. If I find it I'll post.
    I despise him. He's the epitome of the fear-mongering repub tyrant.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Graham made the comment on "fox and friends weekend" this morning. It appears fox has not posted that interview. If I find it I'll post.
    I'm wondering why a citizen would accept an award for heroism from a government.

    "Dear Minister of Decorations,

    I utterly reject your offer of an award for heroism. In fact, I'm rather angry at your ilk for setting in motion the chain of events that led to the extreme risk to my life and others. I am referring to your imperialism games.

    Quit cluttering up my voice-mail.

    Sincerely,

    John Doe"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Brave actions that possibly saved a lot of people.
    They've been friends since middle school -cut from the same cloth I'd say.
    http://ca.complex.com/pop-culture/20...-middle-school
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 325rto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Brave actions that possibly saved a lot of people.
    Shooting fish in a barrel.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Brave actions that possibly saved a lot of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by 325rto View Post
    Shooting fish in a barrel.
    Barrel fishing was curtailed by men who reacted, disallowed that cowardly action.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Looks like Spencer wanted to utilize his paramedic skill ... but first we need to knock this guy out LOL.

    Box cutters? They generally cause little damage and they don't hurt when you get cut .. not an effective weapon at all. All they do is piss off the person ..

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Looks like Spencer wanted to utilize his paramedic skill ... but first we need to knock this guy out LOL.

    Box cutters? They generally cause little damage and they don't hurt when you get cut .. not an effective weapon at all. All they do is piss off the person ..
    Doubt that Spencer Stone wanted any of this to happen.

    Box cutters can be a formidable weapon - Spencer nearly had his thumb severed.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...mble-wave.html

    Teacher was murdered by a 14 yo with a box cutter:
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/24/math-teacher-box-cutter-death/3177855/

    Box cutters were used in the 9/11 airplane hijackings - don't think that needs a cite.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I'll ask the question again.
    Part one: Lindsey Graham wants to give the arm forces guy a medal. What about the citizen that participated?

    Part two: What does the actions of these three men have to do with the army? Not a damn thing. These three American guys stepped up to the plate and stopped an armed lunatic.
    Part one: I say again.......

    This is what civilians get:
    The Secretary of the Army Award for Valor was established 15 April 2002, to acknowledge acts of heroism or bravery connected with an Army employee or Army activity, or that is some way benefits the Army. The performance of the act must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The equivalent military decoration for this award is the Soldier's Medal.

    One man was a US Army National Guardsman, enlisted.
    One was a US Air Force enlisted.
    One was a Civilian.

    The Air Force equivalent of the Soldiers Medal is below.

    The Airman’s Medal is a military decoration of the United States Air Force and is awarded to those service members or those of a friendly nation who, while serving in any capacity with the United States Air Force, distinguish themselves by heroic actions, usually at the voluntary risk of life, but not involving actual combat. The saving of a life or the success of the voluntary heroic act is not essential.
    Attachment 12725
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Doubt that Spencer Stone wanted any of this to happen.

    Box cutters can be a formidable weapon - Spencer nearly had his thumb severed.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...mble-wave.html

    Teacher was murdered by a 14 yo with a box cutter:
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/24/math-teacher-box-cutter-death/3177855/

    Box cutters were used in the 9/11 airplane hijackings - don't think that needs a cite.
    Even with box cutters, the 9/11 hijackings were not all successful - ones that wanted to re-take control did (or at least thwarted the attempt)..who knows what happened on the other flights.

    From my experience, a loss of a thumb does not lower combat effectiveness ~ it just pisses the guy off. Hey, my thumb is at 80% full use today after it was cut off ! So, talking from my experiences.

    A kill with a box cutter is a fluke IMO.

    I have cut myself many times with box cutters by accident (cut away from you you say? LOL)

    Spencer is a typical airman. Pity he serves under Obummer - he does not deserve his service.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Even with box cutters, the 9/11 hijackings were not all successful - ones that wanted to re-take control did (or at least thwarted the attempt)..who knows what happened on the other flights.

    From my experience, a loss of a thumb does not lower combat effectiveness ~ it just pisses the guy off. Hey, my thumb is at 80% full use today after it was cut off ! So, talking from my experiences.

    A kill with a box cutter is a fluke IMO.

    I have cut myself many times with box cutters by accident (cut away from you you say? LOL)

    Spencer is a typical airman. Pity he serves under Obummer - he does not deserve his service.
    Accidentally cutting yourself is hardly the same as being cut by someone intending you harm.

    Loss of prehensile ability is not just a temporary inconvenience, particularly when involved in a fight. Many disabling cuts are quite shallow (involving tendons, arterial blood - think fingers, wrist, neck, back of knee). I am a student/practitioner of Kali - I assure you the result intended will not simply PO the recipient. The technique can be quite deadly and is no fluke.

    The hijacked 9/11 flights did not land safely w/no to little loss of life - to that degree the hijackers succeeded. The impacts on the Twin Towers were devastatingly so.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I'm wondering why a citizen would accept an award for heroism from a government.

    "Dear Minister of Decorations,

    I utterly reject your offer of an award for heroism. In fact, I'm rather angry at your ilk for setting in motion the chain of events that led to the extreme risk to my life and others. I am referring to your imperialism games.

    Quit cluttering up my voice-mail.

    Sincerely,

    John Doe"
    Yet again, for the leading anarchist whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

    Really, Citizen, sometimes you need to give it a rest. "Government" did not "set in motion" the chain of events that led to the extreme risk of life in this case. That was done by non-government ideologies that are (depending on whose opinion you believe) either a rare and radical form of a particular religion, or a fundamental problem with the mainstream beliefs of that religion.

    Not being legally disarmed improves our ability to respond to such threats, but doesn't guarantee such threats won't be present. Notably, terrorists in Israel switched from attacks with guns to attacks with explosives, including explosive (suicide) vests when Israel increased the number of armed persons in various venues.

    A nut case was not forced to attempt mass murder aboard a French high speed train because of anything the French or any other government did. To claim otherwise is to at least partially absolve the terrorist of responsibility for his intent and conduct.

    Governments (like EVERY other human organization) are not perfect. There are legitimate complaints to be made against them. But when you post this kind of tripe, you make yourself the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" in that even your otherwise legitimate complaints get watered down.

    You object to governments recognizing the meritorious conduct of the young men who stopped this attack. I will await to see how many private entities bother to recognize their conduct as desirable among decent men; let alone how many anarchist organizations (and there is a paradox) do likewise.

    Sometimes you just need to give the anarchy thing a rest and remain silent if you can't find something constructive to contribute.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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