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Thread: Gun Instructor's family pushes full auto ban for children

  1. #1
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    Gun Instructor's family pushes full auto ban for children

    Apologies but I can't seem to locate the original thread about the gun instructor in Arizona killed while allowing a 9 year old to shoot a full auto.

    This CNN story repeated on my local NBC affiliate, KSL TV reports that the instructor's family is now turning to children in a video campaign to push a ban on "children" (age undefined of course) handing full auto firearms.

    Full story at the link above. (No registration required to read story or comments.)

    Fair use excerpt:

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN story on KSL
    [The family of the deceased gun instructor have] launched an online petition pushing for legislation to prevent children from shooting fully automatic weapons.

    A video on the petition's website features Vacca's four children, starting with his 12-year-old son, Christopher.

    "It's legal for kids my age and younger to shoot Uzis," he said. "That hasn't changed."
    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    sigh...3.5 seconds later...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...-much-for-her/

    here is a better cite showing different facets in the overall story.: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/25/us/chi...pons-petition/

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...tructor+killed

    this should be interested since piper has me on ignore...

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-25-2015 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    this should be interested since piper has me on ignore...
    I don't have anyone on ignore. I simply exercise the self control to generally not respond to trolls, illiterates, and others who have nothing positive to contribute.

    Next time you have "better" sources to post, please take the initiative to post them so as to save me the trouble.

    The mods might choose to merge the threads....or might leave this one separate as being of national interest rather than Arizona specific.

    Charles
    Last edited by utbagpiper; 08-25-2015 at 10:29 PM.
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    "Problem? Prohibition!" says the fool, the ignorant, the unwise, the emotional.
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    Outlaw children instead !

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    --snipped--
    The mods might choose to merge the threads....or might leave this one separate as being of national interest rather than Arizona specific.
    We shall leave this thread where it is as the "petition" is a national effort, not limited to just Arizona.

    Others have provided good links, though they should do so w/o rancor.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    According to fed.gov a kid is what, 25...26 years old? That's how long i gotta pay for my crumb cruncher's health care.

    Won't go anywhere...unless the instructor's family is not anti-liberty as is not Gabby G and here handler husband.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Seems like the standard response to accidents. "There should be a law..." Although I imagine more accidents are caused by children learning to drive with an instructor in the car with them than shooting autos. Still no laws banning driving until you're 21...
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Well trained by zero-tolerance education. Zero-tolerance is thoughtlessness, and thoughtless prohibition. Children should be seen occasionally and not heard.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    ^ ^ Same might be said of some adults ^ ^ .......
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    ^ ^ Same might be said of some adults ^ ^
    That's what the ignore function is for, to reinforce personal discretion where it can be used.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    when it comes to children and firearms parental discretion with common sense and sound judgment is best.

    a full auto firearm is somewhat hard to control for an adult, depending on which one your firing, handing one to a 9 year old who is unaware of the rapid recoil succession and possibly not strong enough to hold the muzzle DOWN, and also not giving yourself enough distance away from the upward swing, or not assisting with the holding, welllll.. that is why we have Darwin awards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    when it comes to children and firearms parental discretion with common sense and sound judgment is best.

    a full auto firearm is somewhat hard to control for an adult, depending on which one your firing, handing one to a 9 year old who is unaware of the rapid recoil succession and possibly not strong enough to hold the muzzle DOWN, and also not giving yourself enough distance away from the upward swing, or not assisting with the holding, welllll.. that is why we have Darwin awards.
    In this case, both the parents (probably entirely ignorant of what is involved in shooting a full auto firearm) and the instructor (who should know better) made a mistake. It was very costly and tragic for both the instructor, his survivors, and very likely for the 9 year old who gets to carry around the baggage that s/he killed someone for the rest of his life. Maybe the whole thing was gross negligence. Maybe the instructor had worked with the 9 year old for a while, believed he was ready, and it was just a freak accident. I don't have/recall enough details to make an informed judgment there. But in a nation of 320 million persons, proverbial "1 in a million" freak accidents will claim several dozen persons a year. Some 30 persons die of lightening strikes each year in this nation; most of whom were not swinging golf clubs nor flying kites in thunderstorms. I recall some years ago reading a claim that something like 40 persons a year were killed when vending machines tipped over on them as the persons were rocking the machines trying to get free products. I never confirmed that number, but it is believable to me.

    Life is not without risks. Some can be avoided or mitigated.

    Even when introducing adults to shooting a semi-auto, some rounds go range from magazines with only a single round in them, before we move up to loading two rounds at a time. Then three, then a full magazine. Adds some safety to have an empty firearm after a single round is fired. (No, I don't rely on that; mistakes can be made; etc. But it is one easy way to add some extra margin. Also gives the newbie a perfect chance to practice loading the magazine, inserting it, racking the slides, and dropping the mag.

    All involved in the death have my condolences.

    It is a shame that some in society seem to think every freak accident, or even rare case of negligence warrants a federal law.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    In this case, both the parents (probably entirely ignorant of what is involved in shooting a full auto firearm) and the instructor (who should know better) made a mistake. It was very costly and tragic for both the instructor, his survivors, and very likely for the 9 year old who gets to carry around the baggage that s/he killed someone for the rest of his life. Maybe the whole thing was gross negligence. Maybe the instructor had worked with the 9 year old for a while, believed he was ready, and it was just a freak accident. I don't have/recall enough details to make an informed judgment there. But in a nation of 320 million persons, proverbial "1 in a million" freak accidents will claim several dozen persons a year. Some 30 persons die of lightening strikes each year in this nation; most of whom were not swinging golf clubs nor flying kites in thunderstorms. I recall some years ago reading a claim that something like 40 persons a year were killed when vending machines tipped over on them as the persons were rocking the machines trying to get free products. I never confirmed that number, but it is believable to me.

    Life is not without risks. Some can be avoided or mitigated.

    Even when introducing adults to shooting a semi-auto, some rounds go range from magazines with only a single round in them, before we move up to loading two rounds at a time. Then three, then a full magazine. Adds some safety to have an empty firearm after a single round is fired. (No, I don't rely on that; mistakes can be made; etc. But it is one easy way to add some extra margin. Also gives the newbie a perfect chance to practice loading the magazine, inserting it, racking the slides, and dropping the mag.

    All involved in the death have my condolences.

    It is a shame that some in society seem to think every freak accident, or even rare case of negligence warrants a federal law.

    Charles
    Lighting has nothing to do with this incident, there is no instructor for lightning coming down from a cloud.

    since it was the childs first time shooting it, he should have tried to assist in maintaining control of the weapon when firing, so the boy would get a feel without causing risk initially.

    again I do not know all the details, but FA likes to go UP as the force of the moving parts is moved BACK, kind of like a lever in a simple machine. and most FA guns fire rounds equivalent or larger then 5.56 these rounds, with improper gas control and buffer, can have a damn nice kick to them. my M4 SOPMOD inspired carbine says so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezek View Post
    Lighting has nothing to do with this incident, there is no instructor for lightning coming down from a cloud.
    Since I am not aware of the details of whether this was the child's first time pulling the trigger on an FA, or whether he had previously demonstrated competency such that the instructor might have reasonably believed he was ok without hands-on assistance, I was simply leaving open the door to the kind of rare, freak accident that when applied across a large enough population pool yields a few tragic cases each year. If it was a case of negligence, well how often do laws really fix that either?

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Nine y/o girl.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...-much-for-her/

    I did not watch the video of this event either.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Nine y/o girl.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...-much-for-her/

    I did not watch the video of this event either.
    Longer video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGCKFzGAfQ0
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Someone should, in the kindest way possible, explain to them the only one at fault is the instructor.
    The way I look at is like my kid and power tools. I let him hold it with me and press the "go" button and move it around but I still maintain absolute control over it. IMHO this is the way children should be taught full auto. With plenty of sessions this way until a confidence is achieved.

    We don't need another law. If they want to do something actually useful they could sponsor free range seminars across the country on techniques for teaching children how to handle full autos. I'd sign that petition.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Quote Originally Posted by utbagpiper View Post
    Since I am not aware of the details of whether this was the child's first time pulling the trigger on an FA, or whether he had previously demonstrated competency such that the instructor might have reasonably believed he was ok without hands-on assistance, I was simply leaving open the door to the kind of rare, freak accident that when applied across a large enough population pool yields a few tragic cases each year. If it was a case of negligence, well how often do laws really fix that either?

    Charles
    after watching the video, this was negligence on part of the instructor for improper hand placement while attempting to assist in control of the weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Someone should, in the kindest way possible, explain to them the only one at fault is the instructor.
    The way I look at is like my kid and power tools. I let him hold it with me and press the "go" button and move it around but I still maintain absolute control over it. IMHO this is the way children should be taught full auto. With plenty of sessions this way until a confidence is achieved.

    We don't need another law. If they want to do something actually useful they could sponsor free range seminars across the country on techniques for teaching children how to handle full autos. I'd sign that petition.
    +1

    If I may add... we need to do something. If we don't, the instructor has died in vein. What law can we repeal so this doesn't happen again! It's for the children.

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